TPM teaches that unless we speak in tongues, we cannot enter eternity or heaven. They teach that sign of new birth is speaking in unknown tongues.  This, however, Paul says, is not necessary. He says, “Do all speak in tongues? (1 Cor 12:30).” As far as we know, that there is no mention that Jesus himself ever spoke in tongues. Had he spoken in tongues, then people witnessing Pentecost would not have found it strange when they saw disciples filling in tongues (Acts 2). Speaking in tongues is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and like other gifts, it is given for purpose according to the will of Spirit, not our will to receive it.  If then speaking in tongues is not the sign of new birth, then what is the sign of new birth? This article is my opinion on this subject.

Mark/Sign of Fake Christianity

If we see someone who is worshipping with us in the same church as we do, becoming emotional and shouting Jesus, Jesus, then we think he is a solid believer. If we see someone preaching Jesus, we think he is a zealous pastor. If we see someone speaking in tongues we think he is a born again, Spirit Baptized Christian. All our perceptions are based on what we see with our physical eyes. But if it had been so, then Jesus wouldn’t have said, “Everyone that says Lord, Lord will not enter in the kingdom of God. Many will say we have prophesied in your name.. we have cast demons.. we have done miracles.. (we have had all the signs of gifts of Spirit).. But I will say “I NEVER KNEW YOU” (Matt 7:21-23 paraphrased).”  So it is clear that those who prophesied, did miracles, cast out demons, actually believed that they possessed the Holy Ghost, but only on the last day, they will realize that Jesus NEVER KNEW THEM. That means the Spirit of Christ was never in them.

I think it is not outwardly appearing characters like praying, praising, saying Lord, lord and or showing our devotion by singing and worship, but something more inward that tells us whether a person is KNOWN to God or NEVER KNOWN to him. When we confess our sins and take into the waters of baptism then there is something termed as New Birth taking place within us! A new man is born in us, which cannot be seen with our naked eyes. Our outer bodies remain same, not renewed, but there is inward renewal and birth of what bible calls as being made a new creation in the image of Jesus. This I think is the true Christian born in us. There may be many of us who have taken water baptism (including myself), but unless there is this spiritual regeneration within us, until then we are not a true Christian in God’s sight. So it is not all who follow the sacrament of baptism but all who are truly born again as Christians.   

One way to identify this is explained by Apostle Paul. He says “the tendency to discriminate humans with another human, based on race, religion, color, etc, is nature of old un-regenerated man, who is not renewed in Christ.” In his words,

and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Col 3:10-11

A person truly born again person will think all men as equal. He will not discriminate between humans based on race, color, language, caste, or any other factor. This means where fake Christians are found, there this tendency to divide people as Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or master, superior and inferior, best church and normal church, will be visible. Jesus also confirmed this when he said, “Discrimination of senior and junior, master and slave, is the manner of gentiles (Spirit of Gentiles).” “But,” he says, “so shall not be found among you (Matthew 20:25-26 paraphrased).” So the point is clear that discrimination is the nature of the old man (Gentiles), and speaking in tongues is not THE sign of born again experience, but the character will reveal the inner reality.

Jesus said,

“Henceforth I call not you as servants …servant don’t know what their master and Lord will do, but I call you as my friends

John 15:15

Did you observe the Spirit of Christ? He is ready to erase the line between God and man, divine and human, and call humans as friends.  “Henceforth I call not you as servants … but I call you as my friends (John 15:15).” Elsewhere we read, Jesus, said, “Father as I in them and you in me, let them be one is us (John 17:23).” What do all these verses speak of? God is moving to break the barriers and walls of separation between divine and human. He rent the veil of the temple to unite, not to divide heavens. He is uniting, reconciling all things in Jesus to himself. That is why it is the church that is called the ONE BODY of Jesus. This is the essence and mind of the Spirit of God, the mind of Spirit of Christ, and the essence of the Bible, i.e. to unite not to divide. Love thy neighbor AS YOURSELF!

This then is sign of man who is born again. We find him truly loving, and filled with Spirit of Christ, his nature to unite brethren, to treat them as coequal, & not to treat them as inferior and second class citizens!

Peter said

He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:9

TPM thinks that this eradication of caste, creed, color, rich, poor, male, female, Jew, Greek, master, slave, junior, senior is only thing to preach by mouth. They think God will divide Christianity into various classes in eternity, after having abolished it on earth and after having reconciled entire creation back into him.

Is speaking in tongues the sign of New Birth?
The Spirit of the Lord is poured out ON ALL FLESH without any discrimination

Just like the black man inherits his color by his birth on the basis of which he is discriminated, just like the Brahmin inherits his superior race by his birth, just like the Nazis inherited the superior race by birth, TPM superior race also owes their superiority over others, by something they call as “born in Zion experience.” They believe that as soon as their chief pastor puts his hand over the head of new workers, they disappear from Jerusalem and magically appear in Zion – as born in Zion. They become altogether another race – a supreme race with supreme eternal destiny! And they think it God’s Holy Spirit which is destroying the unity which he had built by making himself human.

Unlike Jesus who said, it is the spirit of gentiles that should not be among you, TPM says, let seniors have dominion over juniors. TPM thinks it is God who speaks in ears of their chief pastors, to select a one man above another as chief, or center pastor or some other rank. They think that God who abolished the Jew-Greek, male-female, master-slave, lines of partition is electing juniors workers to serve as servants to seniors as waiter, cook, and driver. Not only this, but xenophobic teachings of TPM convinces its members, to despise other Christians, by not giving their sons and daughters to them in marriage or even have communion with other church members. This, therefore, is a sign of an unregenerate Man found in TPM from head to toe. It seems TPM is only deceiving people by an outward show of water baptism and gibberish tongues, without signs of real inner transformation to the mind. 

Apostle Paul had warned Christians to mark such people who divide the body of Christ contrary to the spirit of the Bible. He says,

I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

Rom16:17

Conclusion

Therefore speaking in tongues is not THE SIGN, of a truly born again believer. A person may speak in tongues and yet show that the spirit of Christ is not in him. His essence and belief based on dividing people in the superior group and inferior group, high calling, and low calling, citizens of better eternal destiny and citizens of inferior eternal habitation, is a mark of his un-regenerated inner man. He believes in Greek and Jews, Malayali and Tamilan, North Indian and South Indian, Rich and poor, master and slave, the chief pastor and normal pastor, junior worker and senior worker, New Jerusalem and the new earth, and so on.

These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

Jude 1:19

90 COMMENTS

  1. timely article Brother,

    Matt 7:22-23, says ..”Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!”

    If they had done all these in the Lord’s name & still The Lord refused to acknowledge them, it raises the question on whose name then did they did all these deeds?

    I believe that this is where 2 Cor 11:4,13,14,15 talks about another Christ, different spirit, different gospel comes into play. Further in verse 13 Paul says..”13.For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

    We can conclude that those wonders, miracles & prophesies done by these men that was accorded to them came from another spirit masquerading as christ.

    Hence it’s important that we know & understand the true gospel, the true spirit of the word of God which enables us to be truly born again in the True Christ!

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  2. Nowhere in the Bible, it is written that speaking in tongues is one of the criteria for eternity or heaven. On minute observation we can understand that tongues in TPM is nothing but imitations since almost all of them

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  3. I would like to quote one of Bro. Zac Poonen’s famous quotes.

    “The sign that you have received Holy Spirit is that you will start living a holy life, not necessarily speaking in tongues.”

    Admin Bro, I need a favor. Can you cite a reference material/exposition for understanding the books of Daniel and Revelation?

    Many of the sources of exposition regarding those books point to an Adventist background, which I am not comfortable with, especially pertaining to their rigid Sabbath day belief and things like “Great Disappointment of 1944.” Almost all the pentecostal sources believe in pre-trib rapture, third temple, etc., which is purely based on Darby/Scoffield revelations. Of late, I have had a chance to read some stuff like one written by Isaac Newton, but I am not sure.

    Please someone help with this.

    Thanks

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  4. Look at the ‘TARRY MEETING’ concept propaged by the ORIGINAL gurus of this CULT for which new believers are enticed!.
    Newly joined believers of all ages,and who are of good educational background too simply stupefied by this SATURDAY FEVER of TANTRIC MANTRA!

    Have we ever questioned whether this TANTRIC MANTRA was in vogue in New Testament age?Anywhere mentioned in the scriptures?
    A resounding ‘No’
    Then who is at fault?
    Undoubtledly we are to blame ourselves!
    Well at the out set, let me first blame myself before accusing the CULT managers.
    CULT managers!I salute you ,you did your business well all these years!,before I opened my eyes and retraced my steps where I went wrong.
    Oh when I look back the statistical data for a typical yearly calender of 52 weeks, 52 tarry meetings,I might have attended,(80%=42 times,for a SS Teacher it is 100% no exception-so fuel cost could be around Rs 100=00/trip ,Rs 4200/on a average ,the believer might have incurred
    For a 10 yr believer it was 420 times trip to f.h (fuel cost could be around Rs 100=00/trip on a average Rs 42000/,the believer might have incurred)
    For a 20 yr believer,it could be Rs 84000/00
    For a 30 yr believer, it could be Rs126000/00
    (Note:if one makes more number of trips to the f.h,he/she should multiply this figure suitably)
    Wait,for a SS Teachers this SATURDAY FEVER-was the real torture. the figure could have come to anywhere around Rs 2.00 Lakhs.They had to spend extra hours for SS Teachers prayer subsequent to Tarry Meeting.By that time, all the week end house hold chores- go kaput
    -To attend or not to attend them,there was a dilemma. No time to think becuz SAT FEVER,hence things get postponed.House hold problems remained for long,there was no one to solve them in time!.The poor man himself.If some guests come on IMP/VIMP duty,,gone. There would be no one to attend them.

    Had they saved that amount in any insurance policy/or in any savings a/c ,it could have been utilized for the children’s future.

    Alright we will cancel them in the true spirit of LOVE that God has given us.Every iota of our being belongs to Him only.The time & space and our energy & health belonged to the Lord,who was our kind PROVIDER.
    He has been our good SHEPHERD who has been leading us all along these years, all through those difficult terrains of past times and even leading us triumphantly right now by keeping us with this excellent fellowship of this site in these days.I am so grateful to the Lord.
    All glory belongs to HIM!
    Kudos to ADMN bro& and his relentless team members.

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  5. Excellent and timely article. Thanks Admin and team for explaining this TPM heresy so clearly.

    As someone who has been born and brought up in TPM, it was automatic that you accept whatever that has been taught in Sunday School as truth, and then the same lies are further reinforced during the various meetings and conventions. In TPM, if you don’t speak in tongues, you are a sub-standard believer without any hope of being raptured in TPM’s christ’s secret coming.

    By the time you are an adult you accept that you must speak in tongues if you must be raptured. You attend Tarrying meetings and other sanctification meetings with a great desire to speak some gibberish which does not make any sense to either the speaker or the believer. During many meetings you look around and see all the anointed ones jumping and screaming and doing all sorts of silly things which in no way glorifies God and you sit there feeling like an inferior believer as you don’t experience these extraordinary manifestations of salvation.

    In addition, the Holy Saints make fun of you and mock you stating that you have some sins which prevent God blessing you with the baptism of the holy spirit. They put pressure on your parents and tell them that they should encourage their children to attend youth meetings so that they receive TPM’s holy spirit.

    In some places where believers can sing and be part of the worship group, you must be accredited by the TPM clergy of your ability of speaking in tongues before you can be given permission to be part of the worship team. So, you try even more to get this qualification.

    Finally, out of all the peer pressure, you succumb and in one of the tarrying meetings, you start babbling some nonsense and the next day, being Sunday, you get up and testify that you have received the Holy Spirit. With this, you become a part of the TPM elite who will gain entry to TPM’s New Jerusalem.

    From this point onward, you start jumping higher and screaming louder and then start screaming some verses out of context and you very soon are branded as a “prophet”. If you are young, the TPM clergy will now subtly indicate that you have a special anointing and must now start aiming for TPM’s Zion. They will them start drawing you into the inner circle by asking you stay in the faithome during weekends and holidays and slowly brain wash you to become their next slave.

    It is so sad that these selfish sons of satan are misleading so many simple folks to their ruin. I feel for the youth who get deceived and end up joining this cult as slaves. Hope and pray that more people read these articles and understand that they are being deceived, and that God in His mercy will free them from this TPM delusion before it is too late.

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    • I am reminded of a particular episode.

      One teenager won’t fill in the spirit and talk with unknown tongues. Parents of this boy were worried and shared their sorrow with the SOG. The SOG said that he can help in filling up the boy with Holy Spirit but they have to give this boy for ministry ( I don’t know if he was serious about the ministry part though).

      Then in one particular meeting it happened as the SOG tried very hard by keeping hands on his head and the parents were all praises for the SOG for his skills.

      4+
  6. This was really enlightening to me;

    Where there is this new man , there Is No Gentile Or Jew, Circumcised Or Uncircumcised, Barbarian, Scythian, Slave Or Free, But Christ Is All And Is In All. (Col 3:10-11)

    This is enough to prove that MT Thomas does not have this new man in him. Cause he makes kinds of divisions of superior inferior … And new man in christ does not create jew greek rich poor master slave divisions.

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  7. If only they could realise that they dedicated there lives to screw us in deception with complete ignorance of not knowing how salvation actually works in the first place….

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  8. TPM will always read I Cor 11 and then skip to 1 Cor 15. Chapters 12, 13 and 14 is never explained or discussed for the simple reason that their standing in based on the twisted interpretations of these three important chapters.
    The clergy of our day is controlled by the opposite of the Holy spirit to glorify and focus on counterfeit version of Gifts alone and never on fruits. This in itself is very clear on who takes over the meetings and controls it.
    It comes natural for these cults to use a couple of faked gifts to the advantage of their organization.
    Paul clearly saw this at his time and saw in his spirit the same trend continuing. So he in verse 1 said ..Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
    At TPM if we list down all the awful things which gets practiced under the banner of spiritual gifts, Jesus will be ashamed.
    Feel sad when the TPM clergy dupes an ignorant believer by packaging a worthless stone in a beautiful gift paper and labeling it as 5 carat Diamond. The believer lives for rest of his life feeling that he possess a beautiful diamond whereas it was always a stone.
    One other notable indicator which I noticed is that Spiritual gifts is always counterfeited but Spiritual fruits can never be counterfeited.
    Spiritual fruits can only be produced by true born again people.

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    • @ Redeemed
      @// Spiritual fruits can only be produced by true born again people.//

      I agree to it but apart from pointing reality of tpm’s un-regenerate selfish works, sometimes i get confused when I look at non christians who seem 100 times better than Christians. Many people around us do some exceptional charity work that would make me ashamed of calling myself a christian. It seems they are shining light and glorifying father in heaven, while i keep myself locked in room, saying glory to God glory to God with my lips. For example there is a TV program real heroes on CNN i suppose where they give present to people who do exceptional charity work. Check this for instance
      https://youtu.be/EpMX1eSVWpY

      When we look at their charity and good works most Christians including myself never come even closer to them. This makes me confused as to how are people not born again able to display excellent virtues than those who claim to be born again.

      6+
    • //TPM will always read I Cor 11 and then skip to 1 Cor 15. Chapters 12, 13 and 14 is never explained or discussed for the simple reason that their standing in based on the twisted interpretations of these three important chapters.//

      Yes, TPM is very adept at skipping connected chapters or verses in the bible to cherry pick specific verses to force their twisted doctrine completely out of context.

      When I was in high school, the elder brother of our local fake home never allowed me to take part in any school sports or games activity, citing 1 Timothy 4:8 as the reason. “For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come”.

      He misinterpreted the bodily exercise mentioned in this verse as physical exercise. However, to understand this verse in its context one must read the previous verses beginning with the first verse. In particular, 1 Timothy 4:3 (Forbidding to marry) exposes the demonic teaching of celibacy practiced by TPM. The blinded TPM workers are oblivious to the fact that the bible is actually warning here about the futility of their man-made practice of celibacy, which is not godliness.

      The “bodily exercise” which profiteth little are religious rituals and man-made traditions, and the bible commands Christians to strongly express their disapproval of such lies and false teachings. We are to refuse any myth, fiction or tale that goes against the holy scriptures. 1 Timothy 4:7 “But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness”.

      Godliness is not celibacy and it makes no man a monk, no woman a nun. Godliness despises no good thing, no beautiful thing, but rather freely receives all good things in thanksgiving and turns them into gladness. In the enjoyment of this world’s blessings, cherish the confidence that they are shadows, and only shadows, of richer blessings of God’s eternal kingdom.

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      • Oh yes

        I was also taught of soccer matches in hell, using severed skulls as the ball- by the infamous dreamers who visited hell

        3+
      • The TPM worker who tormented me so much in my school days by not letting me take part in sports or games died in his late forties due to diabetes (like most TPM workers). His sedentary lifestyle, and his dislike for “bodily exercise” finally did him in.

        1+
    • Another bible verse TPM cherry-picks to construct their twisted false doctrine is 1st Corinthians 7:29 “What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not”.

      They extensively quote this verse to exhort their members to abstain from an intimate physical relationship (sex) with their spouses. In other words, they preach to their married members to remain as brothers and sisters. They misinterpret the phrase “the time is short” by referring this to the imminent return of Christ, and hence the need to remain undefiled in the body. They also misquote verse 28 “But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this” to discourage the young from getting married and instead lure them to their ministry.

      To understand verses 28 and 29 in context, one must read this passage from verse 25. The chapter’s theme is marriage, divorce, and re-marriage, and this portion focuses on unmarried people. In verse 26 Paul says “Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is”. Paul’s use of present crisis (or distress) is a reference to the persecution the New Testament Christians faced at that time under Nero. It was a very hard and trying time for the early church, and wasn’t in the least conducive to marriage and the parenting of children.

      Apostle Paul’s intent here was to prepare his brethren for the tremendous persecution that they were to face under Nero, and he by no means meant that this should be a “permanent arrangement” in the church, and of course, it cannot be urged as an argument for the monastic (celibate) system TPM is promoting.

      1+
  9. hmmm… am just shocked to view this website… am a believer… i had all these doubts in my mind.. but i was brainwashed and pulled into it by my family….
    all my school life , college life days gone in this group… it is not MISSION it is MACHINE…

    i dont know how to come out of this…. my parents and relatives are those called as old believers..
    gooossshhh.. i will never be able to explain them about this… even my frndz are into ministry.. they are in trainning period… every week i used to see them and feel for them… they are litterally being treated as slaves… but a very sad news is tat few of my relatives are center pastor and pastors.. but they can live happily.. but my frndz who are in training suffering… what to do… no use…
    hmm.. sorry guys am just blabering my feelings… i dont know even if i culd come out this prison..

    6+
    • @ feeling sad
      // it is not MISSION it is MACHINE…//

      Well said..
      I will add tpm is machine to make poison and spread it. Like Corona Virus it keeps spreading without men realising how it is damaging people internally

      0
  10. @ Nath ..—“sometimes i get confused when I look at non Christians who seem 100 times better than Christians. Many people around us do some exceptional charity work that would make me ashamed of calling myself a christian. It seems they are shining light and glorifying father in heaven, while i keep myself locked in room, saying glory to God glory to God with my lips.”

    Well said dear brother Nath,kudos to your excellent heart beat that poured out those beautiful lines. I do share my concern with your lamentations.As in the book of James we are clearly told about this charity that the heavenly Fathers commends it as a pure and undefiled.(…to visit orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained from the world….1:27).We hardly see any charity related work being attempted in this TPM/NTC,whereas other protestant churches do take up this biblical aspect with utmost reverence.Over and above TPM/NTC heckle and demean others who take up for this cause.Leave alone that charity matter even for evangelisation, do they evince any keen interest? No,they do not subscribe to the idea of GREAT COMMISSION(now I see in NCPC -AUS agenda,they are incorporating this aspect in their governing principles of the orgn).on the other hand they have been all along discouraging others who venture to do the evangelical work.
    When I recall the excellent testimony of Sister Blessed Assurance posted in this site on May14′(2020),it is worth recalling.in her power filled episode,she said …”For those TPM zealots, compare this pastor with Ravi Zacharias (a man who travels more than 200 days in a year & reaches multitudes of people with the gospel!”She added further…”The TPM pastors cannot even reach their local congregation with the true gospel!.This happens because the TPM system hinders one to understand the true gospel!

    They slander Ravi Zacharias as a non spirit baptized man. How insane it is!
    Did Jesus give TPM/NTC any specific authority to pass on the judgements  on the fellow brethren in that way?
    James says”There is one law giver and judge.he who is able to save and to destroy.But who are you that you judge and your neighbour?(4:12)
    Do they know in TPM/NTC how many old believers/families had been still slogging for years together to get that gibberish kind of words and yet were not successful?
    Would they banish them?No,so this is called double speak.”As it is,you boast in your arrogance.God says all such boasting is evil(4:16).
    Bible condemns it as sin.( James 4:17).
    Yet TPM/NTC encourage such boastings. 

    Late Ravi Zacharias encourages fellow brethren and taught THE BEAUTY OF WORSHIP of our Lord in an excellent manner.In one of his many bible messages.,Ravi mentioned TIM HUGHES singing one of the most famous beautiful hymns –Here am I to worship”that thousands and thousands of people get filled with holy spirit and worship the Lord with spirit and truth.
    I share that clipping https://youtu.be/6CKCThJB5w for the benefit of viewers that they too can rejoice in the Lord.
    It is quite appalling to see in the whole 93 years of history of they maintained that EMPTY frequently boasts,did the TPM/NTC congregation ever taste this kind of WORSHIPPING of the Lord in Spirit and Truth? It is doubtful.At least in my vast experience of this BEAST,I hardy ever came across this kind of worship spell. 
    So talking about our state of confusion over the matters of charity what you expressed,while the non Christians do get their rewards from the CREATOR God,we ,the saints of God,may have to put up this situation till some more time –God willing,till our Lord’s coming.
    Paul tells…”I consider the sufferings of the preset time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of Sons of God….  who subjected it in hope” ( Rom 8:18-20).
    “We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now.and not only the creation,but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the Spirit groan inwardly as we wait for adoption of our bodies”(8:22,23)       

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  11. Dear Brother Nath,
    I do see your point.
    And as per I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. This is agape love.
    On charity I do agree with you. But charity is of various forms and is lead by all faiths. Some do it because they believe they will get blessed, mokhsha etc. Some for fame and very few from selfless within.
    The virtues they display satiates the body and soul part. But the spirit part is not addressed.
    But from born again people, the expectation is so much more. Apart from charity they are also supposed to have burden for perishing souls, spread the Gospel and fish them out from their way to hell. The charity works which is a overflow of agape love towards another individual is of a different dimension in light of the scriptures.
    But like you rightly said, the current situation is many who have born again experience, are STILL BORN as they have no zeal or love as compared to the many who don’t know Christ yet display the good Samaritan character.
    They are either like the levite or the priest who are busy with their traditions and meetings but shun the actual service to community.
    In the video you see the Nepali lady did a fantastic job of fighting human trafficking. This also brought to my mind a documentary on a young man called Sibin from Kottayam. I was truly inspired by seeing him and hope to emulate him some day. He appears to be catholic but if you see what he does out of his true love for his fellow human being, one can but only see God in him.

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  12. What’s wrong in speaking in tongues?
    Why many speak the same repetitive words
    after many years ?
    They are babes in this spiritual experience (1 Corinth 3.1)Nothing wrong with the gift of tongues, the person has to grow and spend time in prayer and with the Holy Spirit
    If the people with the gift of speaking in tongues don’t reveal godly character in their lives, they should
    Yield to the Spirit of God and crucify the carnal nature on the cross
    All those who don’t speak in tongues reveal divine nature in their day to life?
    All those who are saved & born-again believers show Christ like character?
    Not even 50%
    Jesus was Full of Holy Spirit and there is no need for him to speak in tongues. Mary was conceived
    By the Holy Spirit. He was human and divine as well
    He knew every tongue and nothing was unknown to him
    Apostles received it, why not you and me as well
    There are a lot of blessings in the Bible. It edifies, one can speak secret with God, worship in Spirit , one speak not to men, but to God , heavenly language pray in the spirit
    Acts 1.8 you shall receive power, after Holy ghost is come upon you
    Do you feel the power of HS in your prayers?
    2.4 They were filled and began to speak in other tongues
    4.8 filled with Holy Ghost,
    Peter received the anointing of the HS on the day of Pentecost and what does it mean
    If he has to be filled again .( it means receiving more anointing
    And power from HS)
    (Anyone who hasn’t received baptism of HS with sign of speaking in tongues ,
    have this experience (filling up in HS) ?
    Please let me know

    4.31 again filled with HG
    5.32 HG is given to them that obey him
    Its given to those who OBEY HIM
    6.3 full of HG
    Jesus said Mark 16.17 “they shall speak in new tongues “
    Jesus himself said and so what other proof we need?
    St. Paul and the apostles did speak in tongues
    Forbid not to speak in tongues
    I speak in tongues more than you all
    14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
    The Bible says many will not hear/ believe in tongues .its happening now
    Acts 19
    Paul met some disciples ( they were already saved) but haven’t received
    The HOLY GHOST.
    When Paul laid his hands after baptizing them, they RECEIVED THE HG AND SPOKE
    IN TONGUES .
    All of them received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues

    That doesn’t mean those who don’t speak in tongues
    Were not saved .Holy Spirit dwells within them
    It’s a spiritual experience and everyone should have a desire and seek diligently.
    Only those who experience in their personal life will truly understand the deeper walk with the
    Holy Spirit .You will feel your cup runneth over with inexplicable joy
    For others it’s insignificant and just blabbering because of
    Not having enjoyed the wonderful relationship with Holy Spirit.
    Its sheer ignorance
    I am looking forward for a Bible based discussion…
    No mudslinging please

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    • Dear BK.
      Can you please write a short paragraph telling us what is your point for discussion. Do you think that the article tells that SPEAKING IN TONGUES is Wrong or anything like that?

      4+
      • @BK
        I think you need to reread article to understand the gist of what Admin is saying.

        I understand your point that there are flaws in human nature after conversion, but let me be clear, we do not believe that a man who has not accepted himself as sinner, he will be a new man just because he has obeyed sacrament of baptism abd just because we see him speaking in some language which we do not understand.

        A Christian must display signs that he has been born again. There is not only justification but also regeneration in the process of accepting Christ. We have not only accepted Jesus and asked forgiveness (justification), but we have also been buried and resurrected with Jesus (regeneration).

        The whole point starts with belief that like all others we are sinners and like all others who are justified, we all are saved by PURE MERCY OF GOD . This understanding is starting point. This belief is THE starting point. Those who believe this will display in action what they believe, that they are equal like others. It is not that they may not commit sexual sins or other sins of flesh… As long there is flesh…this flesh will have war with inner man… But the old belief should not be there… if this understanding is lacking then we haven’t understood gospel and we haven’t believed what we had to believe. It is like giving baptism to two year baby. He doesn’t understand and he doesn’t believe what he has been taught to parrot.

        This belief is one thing and failing in behaviour sometimes is another thing. What article says is that as per Colossians , wherever this new man is born, he cannot have this old belief of creating division. An old belief is sign that person is like two year human baby who parroted Christian dogma without getting it right. We don’t consider baptism of children because we believe believing and understanding plays important role in our salvation.

        @ unknown tongues as the only sign
        Please let me know what paul means by “Do all speak in tongues? (1 Cor 12:30).”

        5+
  13. @ABAS..”The TPM worker who tormented me so much in my school days by not letting me take part in sports or games died in his late forties due to diabetes ”

    As brother ABAS was narrating his school day anecdotes, when TPM worker brother tormenting him by not letting him take part in sports or games,I am reminded about another real life anecdote happened in my time of fake home life..

    That was a newly laid first floor building presenting a posh look of the f.h.where one worker brother felt like keeping the f.h environment green savvy by raising indoor flower pots,Those flower pots were kept on the stair case leading to the first floor from the ground floor.So when believers enter into the meeting hall,these flower pots invite them with a grand look.It was so happened that particular worker who took the interest to keep the f.h area look green,got transferred and a new worker brother came.
    This new incumbent was highly educated,capable of preaching in English had other ideas in keeping the green environment clean that his previous worker maintained so well.
    At the most what this new incumbent had to do was to pour the water on the 10 /12 flower pots regularly. By that way the f.h workers would get some body exercise by feeding the water to the plants. Probably 1 Timothy 4:8 resisted him not to pour the water for hardly 10/12 flower pots as it says …“For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come”…
    How pathetic their mental status is.
    If we want to look at his other side of hid mind,may be we can,the assumption could be … t he gets tired after taking care of the f.h duties,preparing the sermons,attending the busy meeting schedules at the f.h.He does not want to burden himself with extra load of watering the flower pots in his f.h.regularly.

    There could be another simple reason to assume that this new worker brother’s mind working.He does not want to confirm to the world standards and strictly adheres to Apostle Paul exhortation in Romans 12:1……”.I appeal to you therefore brethren by the mercies of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God” ..This shows how his fanatic mind worked befitting to that situation.Even to make and keep the environment clean,these f.h worker brothers minds were totally blocked and bent upon preoccupied with the ZION myth!Final end came to him with a prolonged illness in the f.h.

    By the by, as ABAS brother listed,here was another worker brother passed away at a quite young age recently during he COVID-19 season.

    This site honored him by publishing his photo at his passing away.

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  14. Dear Admin
    I don’t think that your article is against speaking in tongues.
    But many comments by the readers make me assume that they have an opposite view of tongues due to their ignorance concerning outpouring of the Holy Ghost.
    Some have written that they have to unlearn what they learned in the past
    My point is ,there is no need to give up the precious
    blessing ” tongues ” God has bestowed upon us.
    It’s a Spiritual experience and everyone should enjoy in God’s presence.
    @Nath
    St. Paul later writes in 1 Corinthians 14.5 i wish you all spoke in tongues
    The gift of tongues is a good gift that God gives to many of His children
    There is no problem in seeking that gift

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    • @BK… I’m a bit curious about the gift of tongues.

      How can one know what they are speaking is from God or from elsewhere?

      When we don’t understand what we say, so please tell me is there any way we can be 100% sure that we are glorifying God with our tongues?

      Can we use any online language translator to decipher what we are speaking?

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      • What cannot be understood, can never edify. Even the most excellent discourses will not be of any use if delivered in a language that the hearers cannot speak or understand. But TPMites will never understand this and will gleefully continue with their vain babblings.

        “But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness” – 2 Timothy 2:16 KJV.

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        • Hi Abbas
          You said ” What cannot be understood, can never edify”
          But The Bible says so? No
          “He that speaketh tongues deities himself”
          Yes, I have cast demons from people.
          No need to go after the snake, if I go on a trail and if it tries to attack me, I’ll take it in my hand and post my experience to you
          But God doesn’t ask us to act foolishly…

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        • @Bk:
          People who have the genuine gift of tongues will not use this gift in public (assembly or church). Such people will speak in tongues only in private as prescribed in the scripture. Those who have the genuine gift of tongues will certainly obey the scripture and will not act contrary to what is instructed therein.

          Whereas people who fake tongues will always do this in public as an act of show, or to gain acceptance or recognition from others. The bible is very clear that tongues should not be spoken in public without interpretation. TPM encourages and practices speaking in tongues in public (church), which is against the scripture.

          In this video clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sYGs44idvA Bro. Zac Poonen mentions that 90% of people who speak in tongues are fake. Apparently he is talking about people who misuse this gift in public. I will not go into percentages here, but a vast majority of people who speak in tongues in public are not genuine. The tongues these people speak does not edify them, however impressive it may sound, and that’s the point I made in my comment.

          Regarding Mark 16:17-18 you did not seem to get my point. To preach the gospel to the gentiles, one need not have all the signs mentioned here. Just as you have not handled snakes yet because there was no need, every Christian need not have the gift of tongues to spread the gospel. Let me make it clear: every Christian needs the Holy Spirit and it can be any of the Spirit’s gifts, not necessarily only tongues.

          Several great men of God such as Martin Luther, Charles Finny, DL Moody, CH Spurgeon, etc. never spoke in tongues, yet had a powerful anointing of the Holy Spirit. We all know the mighty work of evangelization done by these men to spread the gospel. This is the essence of Mark 16:17-18.

          If the gift of tongues is a mandatory requirement to prove that a person is filled with the Holy Spirit, Paul would not have said “Do all speak in tongues?”. In none of the New Testament epistles other than 1 Corinthians tongues is spoken of. If tongues is the only evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit, the Apostles (who all had this gift) would have certainly spoken about it in other New Testament epistles. After all, the epistles are the instructions for a New Testament Christian.

          I believe in the genuine gift of tongues, but not the version practiced in TPM which is counterfeit. When the genuine gift of tongues is used in private prayer, it edifies the speaker. I hope it is clear now.

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    • @Bk
      Neither me, nor anyone in fromtpm said speaking in tongues is unscriptural or not the gift of God. What people here at many occassions said was ;
      1. TPM version of tarrying meeting is against scripture (1 Corinth 14:26-27)
      2. Speaking unknown tongues is not the only sign.
      3. We should focus on better gifts which are better for edification of whole body of Christ (like prophecy, and charity, because gift of ministeries are for benefit of fellow brethren)
      4. By unlearning what we have learnt means we should unlearn tpm brainwashing words and understand them in their proper context; we should unlearn tpm doctrines which are far from truth.

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    • @BK,
      //But many comments by the readers make me assume that they have an opposite view of tongues due to their ignorance concerning outpouring of the Holy Ghost.//
      No one is in ignorance here regarding outpouring of Holy Ghost. We are emphasizing that Spiritual gifts are GIFTS and it remains as such. Yes one can covet earnestly for it, but its God which gifts as he pleases. So if you didn’t receive a particular gift, no need to moan about it or better still FAKE it.
      Yes you can speak in tongues PROVIDED,
      * I Cor 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. SPEAKING TO ONESELF LOUDLY IS NOT EDIFYING THE CHURCH.
      * I Cor 14:27, If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course ; and let one interpret. HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU SEE THIS HAPPEN IN OUR TARRYING MEETINGS AND REVIVAL MEETINGS?
      * I Cor 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church ; and let him speak to himself, and to God. IS THIS EVER FOLLOWED??? INSTEAD WE SEE EVIL SPIRIT POSSESSED PEOPLE ALL COMPETING TO PROPHESYING AND IN TONGUES ALL TOGETHER.
      * I Cor 14:19 yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. IS THIS HOW TPM CLERGY PRACTICES??
      * I Cor 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order. YOU PLEASE TELL US..IS THIS FOLLOWED??
      GIFTS ALWAYS OPERATE INTERDEPENDENT AND NEVER INDEPENDENT.
      I wish TPM puts more focus on producing spiritual fruits and then Gifts will naturally follow in the right order.

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    • @Bk:
      //But many comments by the readers make me assume that they have an opposite view of tongues due to their ignorance concerning outpouring of the Holy Ghost//
      It is only your baseless “assumption” and not the truth. Can you show one comment to prove that someone is ignorant about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit? People in this forum are well informed about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

      //Some have written that they have to unlearn what they learned in the past
      My point is ,there is no need to give up the precious
      blessing ” tongues ” God has bestowed upon us.//
      No one has ever said in this forum that someone needs to give up the gift of tongues as part of their unlearning process. I don’t know where you get this notion from? The “unlearning” this site talks about is getting rid of the erroneous doctrines of TPM from one’s head.

      //St. Paul later writes in 1 Corinthians 14.5 i wish you all spoke in tongues
      The gift of tongues is a good gift that God gives to many of His children
      There is no problem in seeking that gift//
      There is absolutely no problem seeking the gift of tongues, and I don’t think anyone here contradicts that. However, the problem is seeking ONLY the gift of tongues and neglecting to seek the other gifts of the Holy Spirit. TPM’s tarrying meetings focus only on receiving the gift of tongues and not the other gifts.

      When Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:5 “I wish you all spoke in tongues”, his statement should not be interpreted to mean that he expected everyone to speak in tongues. In the English language, this type of statement is known as “Conditional Wish Statement Expressing Unreality”. When someone says “I wish everyone in my city speaks German” it actually means not everyone in his city speaks German, and he doesn’t expect everyone in his city to speak German either.

      Please see any good grammar book or this link to understand more about “Conditional Wish Statements Expressing Unreality” https://languageonschools.com/free-english-lessons/the-conditional/wish-statements-expressing-unreality/

      If Apostle Paul really meant that everyone should speak in tongues, he will not contradict himself by his statement “Do all speak in tongues?” in 1 Corinthians 12:30. “Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? The obvious answer is “not everyone will speak in tongues”.

      Let us read the full verse of 1 Corinthians 14:5 – “I wish you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be strengthened” (NET Version). In fact, Apostle Paul desires the Corinthian church to seek the gift of prophesy more than the gift of tongues.

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  15. @ Abas
    He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, 1 Corinthians 14.4
    I don’t know how you contradict the Bible .
    Timothy 2.16 This doesn’t refers to tongues. Your reference is out of context .
    If one doesn’t experience in their personal life, the human tendency is to disapprove it.
    Jesus said in Mark 16.17.
    Believe what Jesus said

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  16. @ NMSF
    Many shy away from this wonderful blessing that God is eager to shower
    Upon His beloved Children because of doubt , fear, lack of proper teaching and
    also ignorance concerning this gift
    in their spiritual journey.
    Some despise and many think it is unimportant as well.
    We are all saved by grace through faith. Holy Spirit dwells within us .
    When you earnestly pray to God for tongues, God gives to His dear children.
    When you are right with God, God gives you the right tongues.
    Once you received it , The Holy Spirit helps you and guides you in
    Your spiritual life
    1. Sometimes Holy Spirit helps you to understand
    the meaning and you can interpret it
    2. If you speak the heavenly language and secrets with
    God, you may not understand and Google or any device
    Is of no use
    3. Romans 8.26 The Spirit himself intercedes for us through
    WORDLESS groaning . This happens when you pray in tongues.
    ( if others have any experience without speaking in tongues,
    Let me know)
    4. You pray,sing hymns and worship God
    5. Finally ,Many will not seek for tongues Acts 14.21

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    • @ BK
      @ //When you are right with God, God gives you the right tongues.//.

      Tongues is just a gift like other gifts of Holy Spirit. It is not what you earn by your right behaviour. Holy Spirit is not reward but a gift. Do you understand the difference between gift and reward? Are you like Simon the sorcerer of Acts 8, who tried to purchase Holy Spirit? He tried to purchase the gift of God with money,(Acts 8;20), ..are you teaching people that gift of God can be purchase it with your right attitude & holiness? Do you think Holy Spirit is earned?

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  17. I agree with your comments. My opinions are not based
    On any church belief, but based on Biblical perspective and my own personal experience.
    Interpretations and revelations of the Bible differ from individuals, ( That’s why there are so many denominations too) how much time one spends time with God. That’s why believers depend on experts like Pastors, Bible scholars, authors to know and grow spiritually.
    I don’t say whatever I write is also 1000 percent correct either.

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  18. @Bk:
    Henceforth, please click the “Reply” icon below my comment to post your response. This way all relevant comments will be grouped together, which will make it easier for those visiting this site to clearly understand our debate/discussion.

    I found the question raised by NMSTF to your comment to be a very valid one, and hence posted an addendum in support of his view. I am curious to know your response to his honest question. I hope you will post your answer.

    //He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, 1 Corinthians 14.4
    I don’t know how you contradict the Bible//
    Would you please clarify how I contradicted the Bible? Please don’t misquote others on the basis of your assumptions. I never mentioned anywhere that tongues don’t edify an individual. I strongly believe that the “genuine” gift of tongues edifies the one that exercises this gift in private. However, I don’t believe that everyone has the genuine gift of tongues, in fact, a vast majority of people fake this gift to gain acceptance or recognition. This is the reason NMSTF raised a question to you, to know how you will distinguish the genuine from the fake. Your Singapore CP Joshua’s gift of tongues is a counterfeit one, and we know that from the fruits he bears. His life could never be edified with the fake gift he displays!

    Why do you just stop with the first part of 1 Corinthians 14.4? Is it not cherry-picking? Please read the whole verse to understand what Apostle Paul wants to convey. “Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church”. Is it not very clear that the gift of prophecy is superior and more desired than the gift of tongues? TPM focuses only on the gift of tongues to the depreciation of other gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have never come across any TPM tarrying meeting for receiving the other gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is what I am against.

    The Word of God teaches us clearly that the Holy Spirit distributes the different gifts to each one individually as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:4-11). In my case, after I quit TPM, I earnestly prayed for the gift of “word of knowledge” (1 Corinthians 12:8) and the Holy Spirit gave me this gift. I am very thankful for this gift as I can read the Word of God in a new light and understand false teachings and guard myself against false apostles.

    I encourage you to watch these short video clips to understand the gifts of the Holy Spirit:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sYGs44idvA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOMvNmANWQg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1C13IVZ5_Y

    //2 Timothy 2.16 This doesn’t refers to tongues. Your reference is out of context//
    From verse 14 of 2nd Timothy 2 deals with False Teachers. It is false teachers such as the ones in TPM that promote this erroneous doctrine of giving undue exaltation to the gift of tongues to the depreciation of other gifts. The apostle instructs us to shun the profane and vain babblings of these false teachers. If we don’t, that will lead us to ungodliness. This is what I intended to convey in my post – to stay away, or in other words, unlearn the false doctrines of TPM.

    //Jesus said in Mark 16.17.
    Believe what Jesus said//
    Again you cherry-picked this verse focusing only on “they will speak in new tongues”. Please read verses 17 and 18 together. “17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well”.

    What about the other signs Jesus talks about here? Do you drive out demons? Do you pick up snakes with your hands? Then why focus only on Tongues? To understand this passage in its context you must read from verse 15. Jesus is talking about preaching the gospel to the whole world. The point of the signs was to verify the message preached, not to provide a litmus test for judging the salvation of each individual believer. The Bible does give us tests by which we can evaluate the legitimacy of our faith, but we are never once told to judge by looking for these miraculous signs. Indeed, it would make little sense for these specific signs to be necessary for salvation. Please see this link for further reading on this https://carm.org/does-mark-16-17-18-teach-that-all-christians-must-speak-in-tongues.

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  19. @Bk….”But many comments by the readers make me assume that they have an opposite view of tongues due to their ignorance concerning outpouring of the Holy Ghost.
    Some have written that they have to unlearn what they learned in the past”

    Dear brother Bk,after reading the comments from the readers,you ‘ve finally surmised that they are against speaking in tongues. No,I think none of them expressed in that tone what you commented.Even the article clearly depicts t a very impartial view on this. brother.

    Please note the writer has repeatedly and emphatically told in the article ” discrimination” on the basis of race,caste, creed etc etc..is being rampant in certain circles……I do echo the writer’s view point.
    QUOTE from the article(middle portion)…..Matthew 20:25-26 ” So the point is clear that discrimination is the nature of the old man (Gentiles), and speaking in tongues is not THE sign of born again experience, but the character will reveal the inner reality.”UNQUOTE.

    What we fail to understand here is:Many of TPMites who spoke in tongues do not match their behaviour pattern.Like the system in vogue in RAILWAY RESERVATION category of COACHES,the said article ideally showcased the TPM’s core methodology to the readers.
    Now a days we hear the adage that goes in certain Christian circles oh.. TPM means SPEAKING in tongues,this has been a widespread notion.

    But then it raises some doubts among the onlookers especially the newly joined batch of believers.They question..Are these people really blessed with this precious God’s gift?If so,where does it manifest in their works/ actions and behaviuor?
    That is the core of the issue here ,,,not pointing ABAS brother or somebody misquoted the scripture portion as out of context. No,that is the minor thing brother that we can excuse our brethren.We do sometimes quote Scriptures out of context too.,but our heavenly Father gets it to His mind and forgives us.He would not count it. But if He counts all our mistakes,we will stand nowhere.
    If I can elaborate this point further let me come out with a live illustration here. The problem is entwined with socio economic fabric of our the Indian system unlike other countries in the West.Mind you TPM never address this socio economic issue of the gullible believers of its CULT

    Here is the crux of the problem.

    Majority of the believer community in TPM of these Telugu and Tamil & Kerala states come from the SC/ST community of the social fabric that Indian society has.In the guise of speaking tongues,some do exhibit their gifts and talents in the tarry meetings,and other f.h meeting schedules just to appease the TPM clergy.Otherwise they would not shown any favour by the ruling clergy. This is the point to be appreciated.Hope you can accept upto this point. From here the scene differs.They speak with gibberish language on every meeting which is camouflaged to be that they were really filled with tongues,and their actions/behaviour hardly reflects their speaking in tongues.When the point of openly declaring themselves as Christians in their job situations,they never confess as Christians! These gibberish speaking brethren hide themselves ,because of fear of loosing the social benefits granted by government.Those rights and privileges were rightly provided by the Indian Constitution.Well they are FREE enjoy the rights,no issue.But what the Bible teaches here in 1 PETER 4:16 never goes into their minds.if so why were they behave so differently?For the new comers who have n’t got this gift of God,it looks quite strange to them and it spells mockery of their behaviour.I can even call it as a hypocratic way of life.God hates such hypocrasy we know that. While Peter denied Jesus in every available opportunity.was he not forgiven?Let us hope God also forgives such millions and millions of Peters of the peculiar sections of the society. What I do is ,I pray and love those Peters, since I also hail from the lower strata of the society,blessed with the gift of God,openly declared myself as Christian in my heydays of mundane job having lost all those so called benefits and promotions ,but carried the banner of Jesus and kept up my faith till this very hour.

    I am sure when I get to heaven,I would meet Apostle Peter and as I rejoice with him,I would exchange my happy memoirs that I spent in my earthly life and vouchsafe him that I withstood all the rough tides that I faced in my life as a result of obeying the WORD spoken in 1 Peter 4:16.
    Hearing and abiding in that particular word is to stand alone for many trials . insults and humiliations because of my faith in Jesus.This is what we proclaim as gospel news to the world at large.

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  20. @ Nath
    Refer his question
    Being right means having the conviction that’s our sins are forgiven, clear sound mind.
    When we begin our prayer, it’s good to examine ourselves and set things right before God. 1 John 1.9, 1 John 3.21psalms 139.24, 2nd Corinthians 13.5
    That’s what I meant
    My answer to NMSF question ” how to distinguish between one speak tongues is from God”
    God doesn’t give another tongue to His children

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    • Brother bk
      None of the reference you have cited, actually says that God gives right tongue when we are right with God. I agree with your definition as you have defined, that ‘right’ means, conviction that we are forgiven by God. But tpm has often used this phrase with another meaning. It says if their is sin in your life then God doesn’t give you Holy Spirit (tongues).. isn’t that wrong? Holy Spirit is gift to sinners to get edified. It is not reward to holy men. And since it is gift, which is given according to WILL of Holy Spirit (Heb 2:4, I Corinth 11:4), we cannot keep demanding the gift that God. I know many in tpm don’t recieve the gift of tongues.

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      • TPM says that the first tarrying meeting went on for 40 days in the upper chamber and ended only when all the 120 received the gift of speaking in unknown tongues.
        The premise they hold is that we must all strive very hard to claim this gift and be willing to let down our guard, be willing to let loose the body’s stiffness, be willing to utter syllabic sounds.
        One pastor even used a verse to urge the laity to keep their mouths opened, so that the gift might have an entrance.

        I know its not new to TPM, many Pentecostal churches have subtle variations of this error

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        • @ One pastor even used a verse to urge the laity to keep their mouths opened, so that the gift might have an entrance

          Funny…
          Ive heard them preach from Psalms ” open thy mouth wide and i will fill it.”

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  21. @Bk:
    I watched this clip. The preacher emphasizes the importance of being filled with the Holy Spirit, and I am in agreement with him. Yes, every Christian needs to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

    He points out instances of people being empowered to preach the gospel, speaking in tongues, prophesying, and doing miracles when the Holy Spirit was poured upon them. I completely agree with him as all these instances are recorded in the book of Acts.

    He also preaches that one should not scream in the church (TPM style) by way of speaking in tongues. He says that he will only speak in English (a known language his congregants could understand) in the church, which I endorse. Your TPM encourages and practices speaking in tongues loudly in the church, which this preacher is against.

    I did not hear him say that tongues is the only evidence of one having received the Holy Spirit. If I missed this part, please let me know at what time (minutes) he addresses this. Overall, this preacher’s message is totally different from TPM’s preaching.

    I hope you are not under the impression Holy Spirit = Tongues. Holy Spirit is God, a person of the trinity, whereas, Tongues is one of the gifts the person of the Holy Spirit gives a believer as He wills. The Holy Spirit is the gift giver, whereas, Tongues is one of His many gifts. Tongues will cease to exist (1st Corinthians 13:8), whereas, the Holy Spirit is an eternal God.

    Leaving aside any preacher, if you believe tongues is the only evidence that a Christian is baptized with the Holy Spirit, please quote scripture references. Bible is our ultimate authority in such cases. This is where I disagree with TPM who preach that tongues is the sign of new birth (this article).

    8+
    • Absolutely spot in brother ! Well said. I haven’t better statement on this subject than this.

      @//I hope you are not under the impression Holy Spirit = Tongues. Holy Spirit is God, a person of the trinity, whereas, Tongues is one of the gifts the person of the Holy Spirit gives a believer as He wills. The Holy Spirit is the gift giver, whereas, Tongues is one of His many gifts. Tongues will cease to exist (1st Corinthians 13:8), whereas, the Holy Spirit is an eternal God.//

      7+
    • Well said, ABAS!

      The concept of “speaking in tongues” seems to have been replaced by “uttering of sounds”.

      I too have found no evidence in the scriptures of tongues being a prerequisite for rapture or entry into the kingdom of heaven.

      The evidence of the Holy Spirit is manifested in one’s words, actions, thoughts and lifestyle.

      Not in the “uttering of sounds” repeatedly.

      I will not insult those who do any of the above as its their conscience that they must guard, but every Christian must read the scriptures about.

      The apostle Paul is very clear on the matter and it needs no further interpretation.

      9+
  22. I never emphasized in my post that tongues are evidence for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
    You guys were saying from tpm view, but I am not. Your points all focused on tpm, but I am seeing from a biblical perspective.
    I have a few questions for nath and abbs about how you experience the presence of the Holy Ghost in your person lives. I am curious to know how people feel the infilling of Holy Ghost those who haven’t received the tongues.
    Let me send it by sending Bible verses

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    • #Bk
      @ // I have few questions….. I am curious to know how people feel the infilling of Holy Ghost those who haven’t received the tongues….let me send it by sending bible verse//

      Acts 4:8
      Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, …,……….

      (Peter was feeling infilling of the Holy Ghost and yet he was not speaking in tongues.. He spoke in understandable language …)

      Here is one more example from bible tells where read that someone was filled with Holy Spirit and yet it explicitly mentions they were not speaking tongues at the time.

      Acts 13:9-10
      Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

      2+
  23. @Bk …what;s wrong speaking in tongues?
    Brother Bk has been sharing very valuable infrn and some web sites to this August readers of this site.Not only that he is seen actively debating the issues concerning the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues with my fellow brethren Nath.NMSTF.Abas..It is very good.But I wish to share a clipping that will edify every one of the readers who are actively following this particular episode which had already touched 50 comments.ADMN -EE- DJ&Vik G have also placed some of their valuable comments.But no response comes forth from the brother who very much ignited with fuel.Good I wish to share a clipping which I believe will bring us some relief to all of us including brother Bk.Can I share the clipping?its very much available in social media itself.God wants us to listen to it.ADMN brother with your kind permission wish to share to you.If you like it float it for everyone for reading it.

    2+
  24. @ Nath, Abbas
    Please don’t refer to the websites and write like a Bible scholar
    I need an answer from your personal experience.
    Have you ever experienced being
    “ filled in the Holy Spirit”? (My question is not about tongues )

    Acts 2.4,4.8, 9.17 13.9,52. Ephesians 5.18 1 Corinthians 5.20

    0
    • @Bk
      @ Are you asking how do I personally experience holy Spirit , when not filling in tongues ?

      Well here is the answer

      I Corinthians 12
      8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

      And also

      Galatians 5:22-23
      22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

      I have personally experienced some of the gifts and fruits of the spirit mentioned above.

      One for example, was the time when I first heard the gospel, it was the time I felt the presence of Holy Spirit burning sensation within me. I literally jumped with joy.. I started walking in my room from one end to other, thinking and thanking God for his wonder for which I was amazed. Even now, everytime I hear something which God has done for helpless sinners, even for making them helpless and teaching them his truths, which gives absolutely glory to God, I feel like worshiping God. Sometime while singing some songs i feel the warmth and sensation burning in my heart. Should I also mention the experience of feeling illuminated concerning his written word when i mediate upon it? Should I also mention about the role we play in edification of church? Where does that edification come from, from our own wisdom and knowledge? Where does the testimony comes from, when somebody testifies about his edification when we mutually share hymns, wisdom, knowledge, inspiring stories that gives God all glory and inspires us to glorify God by our works which Christ working in us?

      I hope it is sufficient to quench your thirst of understanding the fact that Holy Spirit is not limited to tongues and jumping here and there in disobedience to the written word of God. The warmth, the peace, the joy, is more internally than outward show of frenzied disorderness.

      Since I have answered your question, let me ask you my questions.
      1. Do you still participate in tpm tarrying meeting and disobey the written word of God (I Corinth 14:26-28)?

      2. Do you still think self edifying unknown tongues is more important and more to be preached than other gifts which edify the whole body of Christ ? Should we try to make people mad & make them loose their internal peace by emphaisizing tongues tongues tongues and not stressing about seeking gifts that will be beneficial for others? What should we preach – tongues or prophecy, tongues or gifts of wisdom & knowledge – gifts that are for self edification or gifts will help edification of brethren in Christ? Do you seek self or blessings for others. What is the spirit in you – making people self seeking or making them seek blessings for others?

      3. Do you still think we should stress on being sounding brass and tinkling cymbals rather than displaying fruits of Holy Ghost (I Corinth 12:31, 13: 1-13) ?

      4+
    • Dear Brother BK
      You had asked Bro. Nath and Bro. Abas about their experiences with the Holy Spirit. Though, uninvited I would like to share my experience. Since, this is my personal experience it doesn’t matter what anybody thinks about this. This will be long.
      This story goes many many years back when I was a student in college. I was away from my hometown wit all the independence needed for a young man to go astray. I would say I did not misuse my independence. I walked in all the ways that is contrary to the Bible. The details I would not like to elaborate because when I think about this I am still ashamed. As a part of my growing (infancy to youth) up I did not miss any Sunday prayer meetings but for the first two years of my college education I did not attend a single worship. The only thing Christian about me was my name. That was when my God decided you use his bit and bridle. God caught me. I was running away from Him but He would not leave me. Finally, there were some circumstances that brought me to my knees. There was no escape.
      There was nobody to whom I could share my condition. No fellowship, no pastors, no believers whom I could share my condition to ask them to pray for me. I starting praying alone in my closed room. There was a list that God gave me I should leave. I agreed to comply. But it was difficult but I could feel that the Lord was helping me. Then, it happened on an evening. I was crying out to my Lord,

      I remember that day as it happened yesterday. An unknown power came over me. I still can’t describe it in words. I spent hours like that in the room. I came out of that room a changed man. I was free. My heavy heart was light. That power was there with me for the next few days. While walking, while standing very time I could feel that power. A joy that I had never experienced overshadowed me. My tone changed, my life style changed, my habits changed. My friends were all surprised and they were also clueless what happened to this man. They saw a man changed. A different person. All this happened when I was alone. There was no tarry meeting, no Pastor to keep on his hand on my head, no loud music, no clapping nothing. I was not even attending any fellowship. I know what I felt and I am sure there were no unknown tongues. Many things happened in that span of one week.
      Did the problems and circumstances in my life change? No. But the Lord gave me grace to handle it. Were there consequences for my sin? Yes, there were far reaching consequences but the Lord gave me grace and opened other ways.
      MY WRETCHED LIFE WAS TRANSFORMED.

      5+
    • @Bk:
      // Please don’t refer to the websites and write like a Bible scholar
      I need an answer from your personal experience//

      I am not surprised by your statement. We live in a day where EXPERIENCE is seen as the supreme test of reality. “If it is real for me, then it should be real for everyone”. “If it feels good for me, then it should feel good for others as well”. “If I experienced it with my own senses, then it must be real”. This is unfortunately the reality of our existentialist culture. Truth is seen as relative to a person’s EXPERIENCE.

      There is no doubt that a lot of people have the spiritual experience of speaking in tongues which has greatly affected their lives. The problem is that their EXPERIENCE is not based upon the truth of God’s Word. The Bible is the infallible and absolute guide for how we ought to live a Spirit filled life. It is the final authority and test of reality (Matthew 4:4; John 10:35; 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21). Regarding any EXPERIENCE, the question is not, did I have an EXPERIENCE, but rather, did I have a Biblical EXPERIENCE? This is especially true for speaking in tongues.

      As all tongues speaking is not from the Holy Spirit, we need to be careful to test and validate any EXPERIENCE of tongues by the Bible to conclude if it is true. We read in 1 John 4:1 to not believe every spirit but test the spirits to determine if they are from God. Concerning prophecies, we are instructed to examine them carefully and hold fast to that which is good (1 Thessalonians 5:20-21). Tongues must be tested for validity against the Biblical criteria.

      It is only for the above reasons, I quoted some Bible references and provided a few resources from the internet to support my position on the controversial subject of “Speaking in Tongues”. However, I am shocked to see your dislike and resistance to such an approach. I place the Word of God over and above any EXPERIENCE, but the opposite seems to be your position!

      // Have you ever experienced being
      “ filled in the Holy Spirit”? (My question is not about tongues )//

      Your question appears to me that you are demanding a physical sign for God’s work within me! When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a “sign from heaven”, He answered: “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign” (Matthew 12:39). Sadly, many modern Christians demand a sign (tongues) to believe the Holy Spirit, without realizing that tongues is not a sign for the believers but for the unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22).

      I borrow this line from Vik’s comment dated June 12, 2020: “The evidence of the Holy Spirit is manifested in one’s words, actions, thoughts and lifestyle”. The best evidence that a person enjoys the fullness of the Holy Spirit is the appearance of the fruit of the Spirit which Paul explains in Galatians 5:22-23. In these verses, Paul contrasts the life controlled by the sinful nature with the life controlled by the Spirit. This is the change the Holy Spirit has caused in my life and He is continuing to do that work. The real evidence of being filled by the Spirit is not an EXPERIENCE, but it is the spiritual fruit produced in oneself.

      I am not comfortable writing a long list of my experiences that evidence the working of the Holy Spirit in my life. Some may think I am boasting. Some may think these cannot be true based on their misguided unbiblical belief. Only the people who know me and are part of my physical world (family, friends, small group members, colleagues, and neighbors) can testify to the changes the Holy Spirit has brought about in my life by His infilling. I will list out a few experiences below, but these are not for your validation, as the Holy Spirit is my seal of redemption.

      “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses” (Acts 1:8). After I was saved, the Holy Spirit put a tremendous desire in me to proclaim the gospel and be a witness unto Him to all the people that came in my life. Due to limited opportunities and restrictions in TPM, I could not effectively do this ministry. Once I was out of TPM, the Holy Spirit started using me as a tool to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom to my family, friends, neighbors, colleagues, and many others. I am no more the lukewarm person I used to be in TPM.

      When I was in TPM, I could not understand the true message of the Bible, even though I was putting a lot of effort into understanding it through my own efforts. I had questions on lot of TPM’s teachings but could not get answers from the Bible due to my many preconceived notions. Finally, I realized that I needed the help of the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of God. I started to pray earnestly for the gift of “word of knowledge” (1 Corinthians 12:8) and the Holy Spirit graciously gave me this gift. My Bible reading was not the same anymore and the Lord started to reveal Himself in a completely new dimension that I had not known earlier. After this experience, I quit TPM and the Lord led me to a Bible-believing assembly in a miraculous way.

      The Holy Spirit gave me the gift of charity and caused me to be very generous in my giving to the Lord’s work and the poor. He opened my eyes to the lies of tithing and guided me to the New Testament principle of giving cheerfully and generously, not just 10% but whatever I can give beyond that, to the Lord’s work and the poor.

      I can go on and on, but I will stop here as my post already got very long.

      I know you do not like being provided any external reference as a further study on this subject. However, I am providing a link to one of Pastor John Piper’s message titled “How do I know if the Holy Spirit is in me?” https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/how-do-i-know-if-the-holy-spirit-is-in-me. Sometime back you had posted one of John Piper’s messages in this forum. I presume you endorse John Piper, even though he is not a TPM or Pentecostal pastor, and that is the reason I did this. This message will clarify many of your questions on the subject we are debating.

      6+
      • Well said Brother Abas…”you shall know them by their fruits.” This is the litmus test which our Lord asked us to apply to know if one is born of the Spirit. Unfortunately if you are from TPM or from any of the modern Pentecostal movements, you use experience as the test and you invariably get it wrong.

        2+
  25. @ Yeah brother Bk, this is a great subject to ponder over ..”Have you ever experienced being “ filled in the Holy Spirit”? (My question is not about tongues ).”
    I would like to share that message I have.But since active discussions are being held I am waiting on the Lord as to when I should share that information .Its about the greatest evangelist -CHARLES FINNEY, (1792-1875)who told “The Holy Spirit … seemed to go through me, body and soul,” he later wrote. “I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity, going through and through me. Indeed it seemed to come in waves of liquid love, for I could express it in any other way. not ”
    This was much before the PENTECOSTAL MOVEMENT that happened in 50 years later times.

    3+
    • Bro EE
      It’s amazing how the Holy Spirit deals with the children of God. It’s Powerful!
      You have mentioned that you received the anointing of the
      Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in tongues.
      Please don’t stop it in your personal prayers.
      It’s a great blessing and powerful!

      0
  26. Brother Bk,as I was closely watching the reply from brother Nath,I am also curiously waiting the reply from you.
    Hope you are in the process of replying to points (1),(2),(3) as stated by btother Nath
    My clipping is certainly coming.No problem.It is a part clipping.1st part lasts for 5 minutes.
    and the 2 nd part of the clipping lasts for 62 mts. Before I share those clippings wish to get know yours.No problem take your own time.

    3+
  27. Here is a blasphemy packed two hour doctrine of devil from deputy man himself. Someone already made him Chief Pastor.
    Never heared so much evil from usurping the sufficiency of Christ to twisting scriptures, endorsing the great pervert Alwyn etc.
    For those who were endorsing tongues, this evil man after two hours of blasphemy easily speaks in evil tongues and is asking people to get thrown by the evil spirit.
    Lets have a ” List the blasphemy campaign” and list all the blasphemies and heresies that this man spews out.

    3+
  28. @ Redeenmed…..”Lets have a ” List the blasphemy campaign” and list all the blasphemies and heresies that this man spews out.

    Thank you brother Redeemed,this clipping needs a multi lingual translation and I would pour my request to our dear sister Surya to do her a bit for English and I will take care for Telugu.The very gist is enough.This is the need of the hour.Next follows mine my TWO part clipping which is waiting in the cue.This is the way God is alerting us in these end times.
    I profusely thank God for His tremendous cleansing job He is helping us to unlearn these lies.
    I would also request ADMN brother to please delay the next EPISODE as this EPISODE itself is generating huge interest in unlearning many keys issues of this LUCIFERIAN CULT.

    3+
    • If someone could post a gist of this message that would be great.

      I know Tamil, yet, I cannot waste 2 hours of my precious time listening to this pharisee’s irritating speech. It is unfair to request my other Tamil/Malayalam brethren to do what I consider to be an absolute waste of time. Nevertheless, if anyone has listened to this speech out of inquisitiveness, a gist of the same would be much appreciated. Thanks.

      0
      • Yes Brother, yes I did go through the junk just to understand the depth of their deception and will try to summarize it point-wise sometime this week.

        2+
        • @Redeemed:
          Thank you for being so considerate brother. I greatly appreciate your contributions to this forum. However, there is no pressure, please take your time to post the gist.

          If it was a smaller clip, I would have listened to it. But, 2 hours long…and especially from a man who clearly lacks communication or oratory skills…that would be a bit of a stretch, testing my patience!

          Nevertheless, the visitors to this forum, including me, need to understand the essence of this evil preaching to discern the depth of satan’s deception to keep God’s people in bondage.

          I never imagined in my wildest dreams that one day a senior pastor of TPM will exalt a fallen man like Alwin in public, who was in fact excommunicated by this very church for his immoral deeds. But then, it is happening now right before our eyes.

          People need to get this message to understand the true colour of this church, especially the sincerely deceived ones who speak in tongues for hours, yet not enlightened by the Holy Spirit about this cult.

          2+
        • Below is a brief summary and gospel twist highlights from the sermon for those fence sitters and TPM fanatics.
          You will need some grace to endure next few minutes of insane TPM deeper theology reading from the mouth of MT himself.


          The topic of the sermon is “ WHO SHALL BE RAPTURED IN THE SECRET COMING?”.
          Summary: Only those who will blindly obey the doctrines of TPM saints will be in group A which will be caught up. No one can directly go to Jesus but through TPM saints. Holy Spirit is only for day to day assistance at work and school etc.
          There are three groups of holy spirit baptized people.
          Group A – Rev 12:5 Manchild
          Group B – Rev 12:17 Remnant ( They will die as martyrs)
          Group C – Rev 12:17 Seed ( They will join Anti Christ)
          Group A will be caught up in the secret coming.
          Jesus also taught about the three groups in Mathew 25: 1 -12.
          The TEN VIRGINS REPRESENT THE LEFT BEHIND CHURCH
          The Bridegroom (the bride is hidden in him) is group A
          The five wise virgins are group B
          The foolish virgins are Group C
          As per 1 Thes 4: 16 Those who are dead in Christ will rise first. This also means those who remain and are in Christ will be caught up.
          WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO BE IN CHRIST??
          If ONE IS SAVED, HE IS NOT YET IN CHRIST
          IF ONE IS BAPTISED HE IS STILL NOT YET IN CHRIST
          ONLY IF ONE RECEIVES THE ANOINTING OF THE HOLY GHOST HE IS IN CHRIST
          AFTER THE ANOINTING HE HAS TO CONTINUE IN THE CLOSE FELLOWSHIP OF TPM SAINTS.
          IN 1 JOHN 1:3 …As John states …that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ,, YOU ALL MUST HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH US SAINTS AS WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD AND JESUS CHRIST.
          THE SIX CANDLESTICKS REPRESENT SPIRIT BAPTISED BELIEVERS. THE SHAFT IS TPM SAINTS AND BASE IS JESUS CHRIST. YOU CANNOT BE IN JESUS or GROW IN HIM WITHOUT THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE TPM APOSTLES.
          ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT ENOUGH AS YOU SEE IN 1 John 2:27. HOLY SPIRIT IS ONLY FOR HELPING IN DAY TO DAY ISSUES IN LIFE, AT WORK ETC.
          TO GROW IN CHRIST GUIDANCE OF HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT ENOUGH. YOU HAVE TO BE WITH TPM APOSTLES.
          WE SHOULD NOT BE LIKE ZACCHAEUS WHO HAD NO GROWTH. ONE SHOULD LEAD LIFE AS PER THE DOCTRINES ESTABLISHED BY THE SAINTS.
          THERE ARE 15 KINDS OF DOCTRINE BOOKS AND SOME OTHER BOOKS WITH A TOTAL OF 45 BOOKS. ALL MUST BUY AND READ THE BOOKS AND EXPLAIN TO OTHER PENTECOSTAL PEOPLE AND PASTORS.
          THESE BOOKS CONTAIN DOCTRINES AS REVEALED TO PASTOR ALWYN. HE READ THE BIBLE MORE THAN 100 TIMES.
          TPM APOSTLES ARE JUST LIKE THE APOSTLES OF 1ST CENTURY WHO LIVED WITH OTHER SISTERS.
          TPM APOSTLES ARE EUNUCHs FOR KINGDOM OF GOD AS IN MATHEW 19:12.
          WHEN WE GET THE HOLY SPIRIT, GOD GIVES THE SPECIAL GRACE TO BE EUNUCH. BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHEN GOD MAKES US ZION AND BY THE ANOINTING OUR THOUGHTS ARE CHANGED. THEN THERE IS NO PLACE FOR FLESHLY LUSTS AND THOUGHTS.
          GOD HAS GIVEN TPM APOSTLES THE DOCTRINES AND DEEPER TRUTHS WHICH NO OTHER PEOPLE HAVE. THESE ARE IN 15 DOCTRINE BOOKS.
          ONE CANNOT BE TRANSFORMED BY JUST READING THE BIBLE. WE SHOULD READ AND MEDITATE THE BIBLE FOR HAVING THE WORKS OF OUR HANDS BLESSED BUT ALL MUST READ THESE 15 DOCTRINES.
          PASTOR AC THOMAS BLESSED MT THOMAS AND ASKED HIM TO PREACH THESE DOCTRINES.
          THESE DOCTRINES WRITTEN BY OUR SAINTS WILL TRANSFORM YOU AS THESE ARE WORD OF GOD & CHRIST. WHEN WE OBEY THE DOCTRINES, THE WORD OF GOD WILL COME IN US AND TRANSFORM.
          SUCH TRANSFORMED PEOPLE ARE “A” Group and they will be caught when Christ comes in glory.


          Sorry for making you go through above which is straight from the mouth of TPM leader himself. Look at which spirit is in control here?
          Dear TPM brethren, look at where are you heading to?
          Was it about glorifying Christ or this Cult.
          All those fence sitters under the thought that we don’t have to believe all that comes from TPM pulpit, be careful!! THIS IS INDEED THE DOCTRINE OF DEVILS.1 Tim 4:1.
          THE ONLY WAY IS TO FLEE.

          3+
        • @ Redeemed
          @//TO GROW IN CHRIST GUIDANCE OF HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT ENOUGH. YOU HAVE TO BE WITH TPM APOSTLES.//

          Yes .. so deepest……………,… revelation our saints have! I am feeling blessed to hear his voice. All believer praise god for such enlightening sermon.

          In one message I listen on youtube molly Anand channel , our Appachen MT Thomas said – praying to Jesus not enough to get redemption from sins of lust.

          Our Teju anna next in line .. he also said – salvation sans Jesus possible in youTube molly Anand channel.

          Our pastor Abraham Matthew also said , saints dwell in between cherubim in mercy seat. I read somewhere in this website.

          No holy No Jesus can help us …only our saints can help us….

          Beautiful revelation… Wonderful teaching…..
          Trust in doctrines tpm given in 15 doctrinal books.. Our god give him revelation that Jesus , holy spirit all secondary.. .

          This not enough o ye fromtpm backsliders! Can’t you see that Holier than Holy spirit dwells inside pastor MT Thomas . I want him such a man to keep his hand on my head. I want such a man to lead my church. I want to attend such church only where the leader have such anointing that tell us Jesus holy spirit not enough.

          Please run back in tpm. Get saved by our church. Forget Jesus forget holy spirit that our saints teach.

          0
        • Thanks Brother Redeemed for summarising the Gospel of TPM according to their latest chief salesman, Empty Thomas. I tried listening to this mad man’s sermon but his hissing voice sounds like that of a snake and I gave up after a few minutes.

          I think if we dissect every lie which the latest chief heretic of TPM teaches here, it would easily be the subject of another series of articles on fromtpm.com.

          This gospel of TPM was started by Alwin the Nudist which is now being resurrected by Thomas the Empty, is obviously from the pits of hell, no surprises that these servants of Satan are being blessed by their god.

          May God continue to use fromtpm.com to open the eyes of the blind believers of TPM and hopefully they will search for The Truth.

          1+
        • Thank you brother Redeemed. This sermon proves beyond doubt that this guy is a teacher of heresy. Sadly, the blinded TPM folks are fooled into believing that their church’s heretical teachings are sound theology.

          When someone accepts the following statements unquestioned without verifying them with the Word of God, what else can you call them other than “blinded”?
          //No one can directly go to Jesus but through TPM saints.//
          //HOLY SPIRIT IS ONLY FOR HELPING IN DAY TO DAY ISSUES IN LIFE, AT WORK ETC.//
          //TO GROW IN CHRIST, GUIDANCE OF HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT ENOUGH. YOU HAVE TO BE WITH TPM APOSTLES.//
          //TPM APOSTLES ARE JUST LIKE THE APOSTLES OF 1ST CENTURY WHO LIVED WITH OTHER SISTERS.//
          //ONE CANNOT BE TRANSFORMED BY JUST READING THE BIBLE. WE SHOULD READ AND MEDITATE THE BIBLE FOR HAVING THE WORKS OF OUR HANDS BLESSED BUT ALL MUST READ THESE 15 DOCTRINES.//

          As expected, this heretic sings praises of fallen pervert Alwin and exalts him on a high pedestal.

          Reminds me of the recent video clip posted by Philp G. The TPM frogs don’t realize that they are in a boiling pot, all the time getting adjusted to the boiling heat (heretic teachings) without recognizing that the boiling heat is killing them. I hope and pray that it will not be too late at least for some of them.

          1+
  29. @Bk brother,
    you ‘ve won the battle by keeping yourself silent all these couple of days.
    I am in no mood to withhold my promised tapes anymore.
    Bro.Richie gave his wonderful experience in his post,and today we ‘ve seen bro Abas beautiful personal encounters posted in this forum.But I was also eagerly watching for your mail post till this very hour with regards to those 1,2,3 points listed by bro,Nath. Probably you ‘ve decided not to pay heed to my request to hear your views.Since you are curiously waiting for my video,here it is I release .
    ————————————————————–
    1 st part:a curtain raiser for the next 62 minute tape.
    https://youtu.be/GOMvNmANWQg—-a five minute tape
    ————————————————————–
    To hear this 2 nd part, one must devote some valuable time not to move but hear with rapt attention, every bit of this 62 minute tape which is worth hearing
    2 nd part:
    https://youtu.be/bQOObmcNf5o—-a solid 62 minute clipping

    3+
    • Bro. EE,
      Bro. Zac is a great man of God and his messages have greatly influenced my spiritual life over the years. In fact, it was one of his booklets titled “The Marks Of Cultism” that opened my eyes to the fact that TPM is a cult. This is the link for the booklet: https://www.cfcindia.com/article/the-marks-of-cultism. This booklet really aroused my interest to examine whether the TPM teachings are scriptural.

      In the early ’80s when I was working in Bangalore, I bought one of Bro. Zac’s books titled “Sex, Love & Marriage” (https://www.cfcindia.com/books/sex-love-marriage) from a Christian bookstore. It’s an amazing book addressing these subjects from a biblical perspective. As an unmarried young Christian then, I found this book very informative and useful.

      I was attending the Bangalore center fakehome in Frazer Town at that time (Pastor Pathrose and elder Selvam). Once, a worker brother attached to Frazer Town fakehome saw this book on my table during one of his visits to my apartment and admonished me for reading a filthy book. When I told him that it was a Christian book, he glanced through a few pages and still warned me that I should not read any books other than TPM publications even if they are Christian ones.

      I now chuckle at the thought that these pharisees considered it a taboo to even address love & sex in their meetings while indulging in unlawful love & sex at the same time in their fakehomes.

      3+
      • Dear Brother Abas, I also need to thank you for introducing me to Bro. R Stanley in one of your earlier posts. Since then I went through many of his tapes and books and have been immensely blessed until today.

        1+
  30. @ Nath & Abbas

    The Bible quite often
    Emphasis on “filling in the Holy Spirit”, “ led by the Spirit “& “ walk in the spirit” which
    Is a continuous process in a believer’s life, being empowered with
    Power, the quickening of the Spirit and so forth.
    I rarely attended tarry meetings (I usually avoid it for no reason)
    I received the
    Anointing of the Holy Spirit while I was praying with my friends.
    We as a team did ministry and several new souls were added & received the baptism
    Of The Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. ( I don’t want to comment
    On tarry meetings & tithes now as it will divert our discussion) .we had spent most of the time in
    Prayer, evangelism and discussion .
    As you keep on asking me about tongues, I am compelled to write my experience.
    Many at times, I speak in tongues for hours and
    it quickens my
    Inner man.
    It helps me to worship God in Unknown tongues
    It enables me to talk mysteries with
    God ( is it not amazing! God only understands it and the devil can’t ).
    Praying in spirit and in tongues reaches God unhindered. God has revealed the future, I see visions and interpretations as well( sometimes).
    But MOST OF ALL, IT EDIFIES me
    It’s all by the work of the Holy Spirit and nothing to boast about me.
    Holy Spirit is a God and a helper, comforter and it depends on how one
    Craves for fellowship with Him.
    For your question no 3
    St. Paul gives this direction predominantly
    to the churches how to
    Conduct in an orderly manner.
    why St. Paul says” I speak more than you all “
    He was speaking in tongues more in his personal prayers.
    Every Christian is called to do charity. Unbelievers do more than us
    Then what makes the difference ?.
    We hold on to one thing and leave another or else we have to
    Uphold every good truth that the Bible teaches us.
    We need anointing, power, gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit,
    Filling and led by the Spirit of God to grow in our spiritual life.
    Otherwise, we’ll remain, babes, till HIS coming or God calls us home

    My next question to you is, As a spirit baptized believer, have you ever encountered “the Spirit interceding with groaning”? Romans 8.26

    https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/lord-fill-me-with-your-spirit
    http://www.smithwigglesworth.com/index.php/smith-wigglesworth-sermons/ever-increasing-faith/the-bible-evidence-of-the-baptism-of-the-spirit

    0
    • @ Bk
      It appears to me that your blinded. Much effort has been shed by brothers here (Richie, Redeemed, NMSTF, EE, VIK) to help you understand our point view, but it seems it’s falling on deaf years.

      Proverbs 26:12
      Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool than of him.

      This is my last try. From henceforth I will not respond on this subject to you.

      (My summation)
      1. No one is denying that we should not speak in tongues. What we are saying is avoid it in public as bible us against public display of it in disorderly manner.
      2. Preach to inspire people for gifts which can benefit church brethren as whole. Don’t be self centered. It is highly unchristian.
      3. Other Gifts of the Spirit are much more important than tongues.

      ” Au revoir ” – there is translation available for it. Finding it will benefit brethren. It will add to their vocabulary. Unlike saying ghvfhvffbcghhb hhkoyfcvb coz even you don’t know if you are fooling others or yourself.

      3+
    • @Bk:
      I had suggested to you in one of my earlier posts to click the “Reply” icon below any respective comment that you wish to respond to. Doing so will keep all relevant comments grouped together as a thread, which will make it easier for those visiting this forum to clearly understand our discussion. If for any reason you cannot do this, at least requote the questions for which you are responding. It was so inconvenient to shuttle between Nath’s questions and your answers to grasp the discussion. Please try to follow one of these to make it easier for the readers. This is the last time I will talk about this as it may irritate you if I repeat this.

      // Every Christian is called to do charity. Unbelievers do more than us
      Then what makes the difference ?//

      I don’t think you understood my point. Before writing about my experiences, I had quoted Galatians 5:22-23 with an explanation “In these verses, Paul contrasts the life controlled by the sinful nature with the life controlled by the Spirit. This is the change the Holy Spirit has caused in my life and He is continuing to do that work”. Please review my original comment if needed.

      All my experiences listed are a comparison of my life before I was saved and after I was Spirit baptized. Before I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, money was my idle and I was only a legalistic (10%) tither, and that too, because of my parents’ compulsion. After I was baptized with the Holy Spirit, He opened my eyes to the lies of tithing and taught me the New Testament principle of cheerful and generous giving. I know there are a lot of unbelievers who do better than Christians on this. I was only explaining how my life was changed when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and never claimed that this was unique only for me.

      Let me explain this with an illustration. When a nominal Christian, who was a drug addict or an adulterer, gives a testimony to say how the Holy Spirit has changed his life, would you criticize him by saying “What is so great about that? There are so many unbelievers who are not addicted to drugs or commit adultery. Then what makes the difference?” Your statement sounds similar to that, belittling the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. Jesus said in Luke 5:32 “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance”. Only a sinner like me will realize how the Holy Spirit has transformed my life, not a righteous person like you.

      I am reminded of Apostle Paul’s words in 1 Timothy 1:15 “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and I am the worst of them”. I have the same conviction, and this realization comes from the deepest sense of the wickedness of my own heart and the evil of my past life.

      // My next question to you is, As a spirit baptized believer, have you ever encountered “the Spirit interceding with groaning”? Romans 8.26//

      Despite my explanation to you about “EXPERIENCES” in my earlier comment, and how I consider the Word of God over and above any EXPERIENCE, you still seem to be interested in another experience of mine. If I write about my experience on the encounter you stated, I wonder how that will help you or the others with the debate we are engaged in – Whether Tongues is the only evidence of having received the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, you may criticize my experience like the last time. I will refrain from quoting anymore personal experience. I would rather prefer to focus my discussions on rightly dividing the Word of God.

      I would gladly share my spiritual experiences with someone posing a related question to me in my small group or church or workplace or neighborhood, where the questioner knows me and my life firsthand. I will take the time to discuss the subject one-on-one in a physical setting, which will be more meaningful and effective. But sharing spiritual experiences with faceless people in a virtual forum will be of very little value and will never be effective. Please don’t come back to me requesting for personal experiences to validate my spiritual life. Don’t think I am a clown to oblige you and then get mocked at by you. I am ever ready to discuss doctrinal issues from the Word of God, but not personal experiences. Blessings.

      5+
      • Correction: Before I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, money was my “idol” (I had misspelled the word “idol” as idle – apologies)

        0
    • @BK,

      Can you please explain this “groaning in the spirit “ experience as I have heard this concept from many TPM workers but no one made it simple enough for simple folks like me to understand.

      Also please let me know what you mean by saying when you say-

      /// “It enables me to talk mysteries with God ( is it not amazing! God only understands it and the devil can’t )”///

      Your explanation would be invaluable as the above experience is something which every believer should enjoy, don’t you agree?

      4+
  31. Dear ABAS brother,
    A big thank you for sending the beautiful study material sent in your post that I value it.What you ‘ve done is some thing extraordinary.Let me elaborate …THERE IS A SPRING OF WELL WITHIN YOU that always helps you ALONE to satisfy you to get you out of thirsty spell.BUT NOW,YOU ‘VE CONVERTED IT(SPRING OF WELL) TO THE RIVERS OF LIVING WATER,that is freely available to any one who visit this FORUM to grab this beautiful material too.So is the case the case with the owner of this site..
    I always praise and thank God for ADMN and his TEAM who are striving hard 24×7 to get the people to be aware of the LIES around,and alerting the them to be careful in their actions they do daily.So next time when I share another video (which I am getting it ready),I would emulate you brother.We are right now rejoicing in the kingdom of God,with our beautiful fellowship together by discussing the matters concerning the heaven,though staying earthly.The Lord is taking note of every conversation we do daily.
    But tomorrow when we reach there to Him,how much more He would be marvelled at us..
    Wow ….this is the nation that pulled out many who strayed away from the TRUTH (James 5:19)

    4+
  32. @ Nath …”This is my last try. From henceforth I will not respond on this subject to you.”
    Dear Bro.Nath…..please bear our brother for my sake.

    Here is the clipping that could throw some light on why I plead for my brother Bk.

    https://youtu.be/6Xm1uLdRLyo

    (“Ravi had an amazing ability to see someone for who they really were, and to draw them out.” Jo and Vince Vitale the husband wife couple reflect on Ravi Zacharias, from lighthearted memories of late-night dining at Waffle House to remarkable stories of Ravi’s witness and impact behind-the-scenes.)

    2+
  33. @ Redeenmed…..”Lets have a ” List the blasphemy campaign” and list all the blasphemies and heresies that this man spews out.
    Thank you brother Redeemed, this clipping needs a multi lingual translation and I would pour my request to our dear sister Surya to do her a bit for English and I will take care for Telugu.
    —————————————————————
    Dear Brother Redeemed,
    The above comments I posted in my mail dated 15/06/20 meant for possible translation into English and later to other dialects of the land. I wish to withdraw my request aimed to Sr.Surya whose valuable time I might have stolen had she been engaging in the job of English translation. Even the gist is also unnecessary as we got the over all intent in the message anyway.It does not have any worth to be translated into multi languages.I agree with bro.ABAS and got the message as I read him in these columns. I realise it would be a sheer waste of energy to devote that much of time for these CULT managers especially in these COVID-19 days that we are hard pressed and really pre-occupied with many other important items to be done in day to day life.
    I request you don’t take trouble of translation, you would better invest the time to some other important activity.Thank you.

    3+
  34. The moment someone fromtpm.com holds the mirror of the Word of God to a TPM believer, and when he is prompted to remove his TPM prescribed lens and take a peep, he is shocked by his nakedness. Instinctively he grabs hold of whatever out of context scripture verses he can muster to cover himself but sooner than later, he realises the futility of these fig leaves. Finally he ends up running for cover and in most cases, he never comes back.

    This happens again and again and again…but the beauty of all this is that our God finds His sheep who are lost in TPM and draws them out one by one from TPM.

    What a wonderful God we serve!

    3+
  35. What are you people fighting for? All churches , tpm , cpm, vpm, ag, bg, cg, all are children of harlot born just after the first century church. Slowly slowly, step by step, false waters started seeping in pure river and now the norm is polluted waters. You people keep fighting ours is pure stream but fact is that dirty water has made everything dirty. Except scriptures nothing can be trusted. Have a look .

    7+
    • @Philp G.,
      Thanks for posting this video clip brother, such an eye-opener. I hope everyone watches this clip to understand the deception and corruption going on in the institutional churches. I can’t wait for Part 2 of the video.

      The frog analogy is very apt and conveys the message in such a practical way that even a fool can comprehend it clearly. I have heard this analogy before, but this is the first time I have seen an actual demonstration of this…very impressive!

      The history sheet of the church from its inception is so revealing. Institutional churches such as TPM do not want their adherents to know anything about church history. For this reason, they strongly discourage their members from reading any Christian material other than their own publications.

      Anyone who has read the church history will know that “celibacy” was introduced only in the 11th century AD. But TPM deftly misleads their adherents into believing that all the original apostles led a life of celibacy contradicting the Bible and church history.

      Similarly, people familiar with the church history know well that titles, such as Holy Father, Bishop, Reverend, Pastor, etc., were adapted only in the 5th century AD. So is the case of Tithing, Tongues, etc…they all started to be practiced by the harlot church only when it got institutionalized, not when the church was a local assembly of called out individuals in the first 200 years.

      If the debates/discussions on this forum appear to you as “fighting”, that is very unfortunate. The intent of this website is not to promote one church over another but to expose the unscriptural practices of institutional churches such as TPM.

      Apostle Paul says in Galatians 4:16 “Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?”. When the truth is said, it may project us as “enemies” and give the impression that we are “fighting”. However, this is far from true if you go through this website without any bias.

      2+
      • Brother. Seems the second part is also available. It has lots of understanding for people who do not know the history of the church.

        0
  36. @Philip, you are right, but is this not what this site is trying to create awareness about?
    I will not call it fighting but persuading those with veil on their eyes to cast it off and repent.

    2+
  37. @Redeemed brother,thank you you ran the race quite fast even before my request was posted you were reached 3/4 on the track of this translation business of Empty’s theological essence..Thank you brothrer for all your painful efforts.They won’t go wasted anyway but atleast one soul from the fence sitting group reads and gets enlightened from the gist of the matter,and all your efforts are really worthy to be bracketed under the saving of the souls wandering from the truth to have been brought back to the truth.All that credit goes to you brother as James the servant of God exhorts in his epistle.
    Kerala stands as the top most and foremost literate state in India.Those well read believer group should dump down these heresies and lies in the coffin box of big hoaxes that they have been hearing in these days.Good,let them hear But let them also become BEREANS in the ensuing process.This is the time that they pay heed to the still voice of Holy Spirit that this site has been trumpeting ever since it came into existence.Kudos to you brother.

    2+
  38. Dear Redeemed,
    I appreciated your perseverance and tolerance. Just Like brother No More a Slave to Fear, I couldn’t continue further may be due to lack of my TPM based scriptural knowledge. I heard that this deeper revelation directly from the pit is delivered at the Ernakulum central convention few years back.

    Now it is absolutely clear that the death of Jesus Christ on Cross is incomplete without TPM saints as per sunyan thoma.

    ടിപിഎം ശരണം ഗച്ഛാമി,
    ശൂന്യൻ തോമാ ഗച്ഛാമി,
    ടിപിഎം ഷണ്ഡൻ ഗച്ഛാമി,
    ദൈവ നിഷേധം ഗച്ഛാമി.

    0
  39. With the joining of Philip.G in this interesting forum debate,more impetus was seen by his clippings sent.The Holy Spirit is clearly seen guiding us thus far. I think as we journey further from now on we are going to get more interesting details on church history which says on The Westminster Shorter Catechism (1647) begins:

    Question: What is the chief end of man?
    Answer: To glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

    Hope the incoming clippings/episodes from Philip.G would throw some light on the Westminster Shorter Catechism (1647)

    0

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