This article is the third on the series which explains the Picture puzzle of the first. But before we reach that part, an important Highlight follows.

Today(9th June 2019), we remember the day of Pentecost. This is a day which marks a great sign of God’s interaction with mankind. We usually associate this day with the coming of the Holy Spirit among the Disciples of Jesus. Did you know that the first recorded day of Pentecost was in the Mount of Sinai when God descended on the mountain? Since that first occurrence, the children of Israel remembered the day of Pentecost. They used to call this day also as hag matan torateinu, the day when they received the Torah.

Mt Sinai Pentecost Vs Upper Room Pentecost

  • For the First Pentecost, God’s presence was accompanied by fire, smoke, and the sound of thunder in Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:16-19). God’s presence during Pentecost after Jesus’ resurrection was accompanied by the sound of the wind, tongues of fire, and the gift of different languages (Acts 2:1-3).
  • When God gave the Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai, the people were worshipping the golden calf. About 3,000 people died as punishment for their sins. When the Holy Spirit was given during Pentecost, the people repented, and about 3,000 people believed and found spiritual life.
  • God’s presence was symbolized by a cloud and fire, which led the Israelites out of Egypt. Later, God moved his presence into the temple (2 Chron. 5:7-8, 13-14). During Pentecost, God’s presence moved from the temple into a “new temple,” the followers of Jesus (Rom. 8:9).
  • Finally, The Torah provided God’s teachings for the Old Testament community of people. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit became the Teacher of believers (John 14:26). The law was written in the hearts.

If TPM is having any connection to any of the above Pentecost(I know it doesn’t), it is closer to the Mt Sinai Pentecost. It’s very far from the Pentecost followed by the Disciples of Jesus.  ……for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor 3:6

Babel Reversed, Barriers Removed

Venom Removal Series - Shadow Vs RealityBabel reminds us of division among people because of Languages. Even today we see people divided based on languages. Conflicts arise because of that. But in the upper room, that division was done away with. People misunderstood others because of language barriers. On the day of Pentecost in the upper room, everybody understood what was spoken (Acts 2:8). Now a natural question should pop up for every TPM Believer, who have not sold out their brains to the clergy. If in the day of Pentecost, all language barriers were removed and one could understand what the other person was saying, why don’t I understand what my neighbour supposedly speak in so-called tongues when in TPM? This is an answer which you should get for yourself.


  • The Day of Pentecost also is a day of remembrance of the Birth and Death of King David, as per Jewish Traditions. He had the same day as his Birthday and Death Day, the day of Pentecost.
  • The Gentile Ruth was married to the Jew Boas, during the days of the Feast of Pentecost. This is significant because starting with Pentecost in the Upper Room, the entry of Gentiles was opened to the Church of God.
  • The Day of Pentecost always falls on a Sunday.
  • This is the only Jewish festival in which the Leavened bread is roasted.
  • It is very much possible that the Apostles remembered the day of Pentecost and put that into their calendars.( Acts 2:11 Cor 16:8). Do you think the  White clads of TPM who proclaim themselves as “Pentecostals”, even remember this day?

Answering the Painting Puzzle

This is an artwork of Hans Holbein younger. Painting is known as “Allegory of Old and New Testament.” Painting is divided into two parts with a giant tree in between. Tree refers to Israel (Luke 13:6-9). The tree on left is dried, and it says that without Christ there is no life in people of God (or Israel). Similarly, the blooming tree on the right side is God’s chosen people or children of Abraham by faith or new Israel.

Venom Removal Series - Shadow Vs Reality

The left side of the tree is the Old Testament. The right side of the tree is the New Testament. Old Testaments events were pointers to events related to Jesus in the New Testament.

On the left-hand side, the painter shows us Adam and his wife (label 1).  Then exactly on the same level on the right-hand side, he paints the picture of Jesus and his followers (label 8).  By this, the painter says that followers of Jesus (his disciples) are EVE or church – the bride of Last Adam Jesus. He has drawn Jesus and his church (New EVE) on higher plane compared to Adam and Eve.

We see a skeleton in label 4. Adam’s sin and Law in the Old Testament brought death. On right, in the exact opposite side, we see the victory of Jesus over death (label 11).

We see Moses lifting up a serpent in the wilderness (label 2). Likewise, on an exactly parallel level on the right-hand side, we see Jesus lifted up on the cross (see label 9). The message is from John 3:14, where Jesus himself drew comparison saying as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the son of man be raised so that he who believes in him will not die.

Then we see Moses receiving law on Mount Sinai after the First Pentecost (label 3). Exactly on a parallel level, on right-hand side top, we see Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, as the mediator of New Covenant (label 10).

Finally coming to the center part, we see prophet Isaiah (label 5) pointing to Jesus on the cross (Isaiah 53). On his right side, we have John the Baptist (label 6), pointing to Jesus the Lamb of God (label 9), to be sacrificed as a fulfillment of Isaiah (John 1:36). We see John saying, “Behold the lamb of God prophesied in Isaiah (Old Testament scriptures).”

Between Isaiah in the Old Testament and John the Baptist in the New Testament (label 7), we have “Homo” means man. Both Old Testament prophets (represented by Isaiah) and New Testament prophets (represented by John the Baptist) points to Jesus. This Interpretation is what I see.


When we remove the lens of TPM, we will understand the scripture better. TPM was never in the plan of God for his Church, as many TPM fanatics would imply. It is Satan’s plan to plant tares into the kingdom of God. We should be wiser to know that TPM is a complete package of Tare which looks like the wheat. The Lord knows that and has opened our eyes to this reality. The focus of the scripture should be on the wheat grain(Jesus) that fell on the ground and died(John 12:24) and not on tares camouflaging as wheat(TPM White Clads)


  1. Excellent interpretation, very informative and indeed very useful in opening eyes.

    Thank God for sending His Son – The only Saviour to redeem us.

    May God open the eyes of our TPM saints and their followers through these articles and make them understand that there is no need for any more saviours, how much ever holy or consecrated or celibate they are.

  2. PUZZLE in the PUZZLE
    ( all in the lighter vein)
    WHILE APPRECIATING ADMN brother’s excellent reading skills of the artwork of painter,I can not wait but profusely thank him for bringing more clarity to the readers minds.This is not to belittle the readers who already brought out their comments in their own way that finally fell in the line of the thinking of ADMN bro, I too thank them.However,I ‘ve got to bring one observation to ADMN brother that he wrote label number 6 which should have written as label 7 while beautifully explaining the artwork of Hans Holbein younger. Three cheers to him.
    So here it is:
    I am not considering this as a big ,serious lapse on the part of ADMN brother, but rather commend him as a blessing in disguise for all of us.It is a sort of PUZZLE in the PUZZLE.
    Only the readers who watched this picture intently with high concentration levels could able to discern what is all about the PUZZLE in the PUZZLE. Readers who wish to take it as
    ‘a fun reading’ shall never be able to partake this debate.
    Probably the first commentator brother — NMSTF might have missed his attention on this PUZZLE in the PUZZLE. but I ‘ve chosen to contribute my small bit into this episode just to evoke more interest into this.This is all to be taken in the lighter vein only
    Praise God

    @Finally coming to the center part, we see prophet Isaiah (label 5) pointing to Jesus on the cross (Isaiah 53). On his right side, we have John the Baptist (label 6), pointing to Jesus the Lamb of God (label 9), to be sacrificed as a fulfillment of Isaiah (John 1:36). We see John saying, “Behold the lamb of God prophesied in Isaiah (Old Testament scriptures).”
    Finally coming to the center part, we see prophet Isaiah (label 5) pointing to Jesus on the cross (Isaiah 53). On his right side, we have John the Baptist (label 7), pointing to Jesus the Lamb of God (label 9), to be sacrificed as a fulfillment of Isaiah (John 1:36). We see John saying, “Behold the lamb of God prophesied in Isaiah (Old Testament scriptures).”
    @Between Isaiah in the Old Testament and John the Baptist in the New Testament (label 7), we have “Homo” means man. Both Old Testament prophets (represented by Isaiah) and New Testament prophets (represented by John the Baptist) points to Jesus. This Interpretation is what I see.
    Between Isaiah in the Old Testament and John the Baptist in the New Testament (label 7), we have “Homo” means man( label 5). Both Old Testament prophets (represented by Isaiah) and New Testament prophets (represented by John the Baptist) points to Jesus. This Interpretation is what I see.

  3. I ‘VE COMMITTED A SMALL BLUNDER while presenting my comment just published .Here is the correction. Hope this will evoke more interest into this episode.
    Between Isaiah in the Old Testament and John the Baptist in the New Testament (label 7), we have “Homo” means man( label 5). Both Old Testament prophets (represented by Isaiah) and New Testament prophets (represented by John the Baptist) points to Jesus. This Interpretation is what I see.
    Between Isaiah in the Old Testament and John the Baptist in the New Testament (label 7), we have “Homo” means man( label 6). Both Old Testament prophets (represented by Isaiah) and New Testament prophets (represented by John the Baptist) points to Jesus. This Interpretation is what I see.

    • @Eagle’s Eye
      John the Baptist also belonged to the Old Testament/Covenant. Historically speaking, he was living at the time just before the New Covenant started. Though his historical references are found in the New Testament Scriptures, the New Testament was really started at the death of Jesus following his crucifixion. John the Baptist was the last prophet under the Old Covenant(Malachi 3:1).

      Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16In the case of a will, it is necessary to establish the death of the one who made it, 17because a will does not take effect until the one who made it has died; it cannot be executed while he is still alive Heb 9:15-17

      This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matt 26:28

      But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, Gal 4:4

  4. Very true indeed. Thanks for your patient explanation. Hope all the fence sitters must be watching intently. Praying for them that God grants them an opportune time to jump out from the impending peril. The ENEMY was right in front me but alas I imprisoned myself and was duped and I went on passing the time almost 25 years and odd. But thanks my ALMIGHTY God did not leave me nor forsake me.

  5. Admin,
    I want to know your stand on unknown tongues. Do you expect all unknown tongues to be a language understand able by humans. Leave the unknown tongues spoken in tpm. But what about the unknown tongues spoken by others in the world today.

    • What you see in most of the neo-pentecostal churches is NOT Unknown Tongues. What happens is whipping up passions with drum beats and music. This brings in an elevated state of emotion and they blurt out whatever comes to their mouth. Most of those are REPETITIONS. It is not unknown tongues.
      Apostle Paul clearly says that Tongues are a sign for the UNBELIEVERS. Do you think if an unbeliever comes to TPM and hears the huge noise and commotion, he will understand anything?

      Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 1 Cor 14:22


  6. Good reply to bro.Johnson.but the verse written is to be corrected.

    @Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 1 Cor 4:22
    There must be a typographical error occurred. It is not 1 Cor 4:22,but should be read as 1 Cor 14:22

  7. Thanks admin. You mean neo Pentecostal churches are charismatic movement right? Please correct me if I am wrong. My another question is, you have come from tpm background right? Do you speak unknown tongues in the right way? Is it understand able by others?
    I received baptism of the holy spirit in one of the independent Pentecostal church with the sign of unknown tongues. Do you say that what I speak is not genuine unknown tongue?

    • I am nobody to judge anybody’s unknown tongues. But I am telling what is happening in many churches. One thing which you should look out is that your unknown tongues should not depend on any songs or a charged up environment. If it is genuine, you should speak out in private without any aids.

      • Okay admin but I want to know if unknown tongue must be an understandable language a.k.a any human language? Because many cessionist say that unknown tongue must be a human language and many comments in this site seems to assert the same.

        • Yes, UNKNOWN TONGUES has to be a language which is understandable by others(present or Far). That is made explicit in 1 Cor 14:22. That is the reason why Paul says that if any speak in tongues in the assembly, let him not speak if there is no interpreter 1 Cor 14:28.
          Many people Wrongly assume that the groaning of the Spirit(Rom 8:26-27) is Unknown Tongue.

        • I have checked the ESV and KJV and cannot find the expression “Unknown Tongues” however I can find “Other Tongues” which should mean other languages and not unknown languages.

          This is an example how the heretics change a simple word and the whole meaning changes just to meet their selfish agenda.

          My confusion regarding tongues was cleared after reading 1 Corinthians 14 chapter in whole.

        • A “tongue” is a language – like your mother tongue. A plain text reading of the epistle will clarify that the apostle and others witnessed people filled in the Holy Spirit speaking in languages that were “strange” to them.

          Hence, he advised that
          1. There’s no point in hundreds of people in different languages speaking at the same time as it is of no edifying value.
          2. If there was no one present to translate the language then it would be better for the speaker to stay silent.

          What we witness is people getting into a state of emotional euphoria fueled by fast paced music, drum bests and fervent clapping of hands uttering sounds and strange phrases repeatedly.

          Like the admin said, we should not judge them.

          However a “tongue” like any language must have structure and grammar – even if we don’t understand it.

          What we hear most often is people screaming the same thing over and over again which nobody can understand.
          Sounds more like “vain repetitions” to me.

          I have yet to come across a verse that suggests that every person must speak in tongues.
          I have always understood that different gifts of the Holy Spirit are granted to different people.

          But I could be totally wrong about it.

        • sorry my bad, I searched for “unknown tongues” and hence could not find it. Thanks for correcting me.

  8. Then what is about the prayer language I.e. speaking in unknown tongues to the God. Paul says it is edifying the self who speak in unknown tongues. Do you say that language also should be a human language?
    Moreover I hope you might have received baptism of the holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in unknown tongues. Do you confidently say that what you speak in the unknown tongue is a human language?

    • Dear Admin and others,

      Adding further to my above comment…………….
      From my 20 years as believer, I didn’t see any one who was baptized with the holy spirit spoke in other tongues i.e. human language . I went to many churches including TPM and attended many meetings. They speak in unknown tongues which doesn’t look like any human languages spoken today in the world. But I noticed one thing, the unknown tongue spoken in TPM churches looks different from other Pentecostal churches or ministers. In TPM, most of the people speak unknown tongue with few words repeating and everyone speaks with the same tone. But in other churches and ministries I saw them speaking unknown tongues which seems to be a language but it also doesn’t look like a human language.
      1. Did you ever seen a person said to be baptized with the holy spirit speaking in any human language?
      2. If unknown tongue is not the sign of receiving baptism of the holy spirit then what is the sign? Is that power as preached by John Piper and Zac Poonen? Lets say if the power is the sign, how can a person confirm if he received the baptism of the holy spirit? something should happen inward or outward right? Power means what? How can we describe and acknowledge that?

      • True, I have noticed that the TPM Tongues sound different from that of the other churches.

        //1. Did you ever see a person said to be baptized with the holy spirit speaking in any human language?
        Yes. Admin received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in his late teens while praying alone at home. My Unknown tongue sounded weird and quite different from what you hear in TPM. After many years, I happened to have a few Arabic friends and immediately it clicked on me that sentences that I used to speak in Unknown Tongues were indeed laced with Arabic words. However, I don’t think if the complete sentences were Arabic. So that is my experience.

        //2. If the unknown tongue is not the sign of receiving the baptism of the holy spirit then what is the sign?
        I would say Unknown tongues is NOT the Only Sign of baptizing with Holy Spirit. I know of people who received Visions and dreams according to Joel 2:28. I also know of people who had received the gift of healing too. So I would not limit the baptism of the Holy Spirit to Just speaking in Tongues.

  9. @Moreover I hope you might have received baptism of the holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in unknown tongues. Do you confidently say that what you speak in the unknown tongue is a human language?
    A very ticklish and a legitimate query indeed.
    The reader states— Do you confidently say that what you speak in the unknown tongue is a human language?–
    Yes, since unknown tongue does not have any structure nor does it follow any grammatical rules-
    we can safely subscribe to the fact that it is not a human language,but it is a heavenly language.Let me elaborate further as we go proceed in this debate.

    For a better understanding for the READER COMMUNITY,let me consider 5 biblical truths
    with valid references.

    Well at the outset,without a doubt, speaking in tongues is the most controversial spiritual gift mentioned in the New Testament.
    Is it from God or the devil?
    Should believers ignore it, oppose it, or embrace it?
    There are many legitimate questions regarding the gift of tongues that deserve a thoughtful, biblical response. Let’s deal with five of them.

    1. Is speaking in tongues from God or the devil?

    The most important thing you need to know about speaking in tongues is what Jesus said about it, and He did not mince His words in Mark 16:17: “And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues.”
    Jesus declared that tongues is a supernatural sign that can and should accompany everyone who believes in Him. God does not give His children any bad gifts, so we shouldn’t fear or ridicule the gift of tongues.

    2. Are people making it up when they speak in tongues?
    ( or in a sense to say —–do they fool around with the people/church ?)
    We must be able to discern it.
    The gift of tongues is a known or heavenly language unknown to the speaker that enables him or her to communicate directly with God. Paul said in 1 Cor. 13:1, “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels…” When you receive the gift of tongues, in a split second the Holy Spirit downloads a language into your spirit without you ever having to learn it.

    In 2006, researchers at the University of Pennsylvania took brain images of five people while they spoke in tongues. Their research was published in THE NEW YORK TIMES The leader of the study team was Dr. Andrew Newberg, who arrived at this conclusion:

    “We noticed a number of changes that occurred functionally in the brain. Our finding of decreased activity in the frontal lobes during the practice of speaking in tongues is fascinating because these subjects truly believe that the spirit of God is moving through them and controlling them to speak. …Our brain-imaging research shows us that these subjects are not in control of the usual language centers during this activity, which is consistent with their description of a lack of intentional control while speaking in tongues.”

    I have a clipping to this effect.If some one requests for it ,,,,,,I need to search my laptop and get it.

    When they prayed in tongues, their frontal lobes, the willful part of the brain we use to think and control what we do, were quiet. The language center of their brains—the part we use to speak in our native language—were quiet as well. The people were not in a trance; they were fully aware of what was happening. The researchers were unable to pinpoint which part of the brain was controlling this behavior of speaking in tongues. Dr. Newberg went on to say, “The amazing thing was how the images supported people’s interpretation of what was happening. … The way they describe it, and what they believe, is that God is talking through them.”

    Hence speaking in tongues is clearly not a fabricated language, as these scientists have confirmed. It is a spiritual language given to us by God to communicate with Him.

    3. Is speaking in tongues a fringe gift that only a few people receive?

    The gift of tongues was the most common spiritual gift in the New Testament church.

    The Bible tells us in Acts 2:4 that all of the original 120 disciples at Pentecost spoke in tongues in the Upper Room: “All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.” We don’t know if they all received the gift of faith or healing or discernment, but we know for a fact that all of them received the gift of tongues.

    Today, there are more than 600 millions charismatic-Pentecostal believers worldwide, the second-largest group of Christians after Catholics. Pentecostals and charismatic churches are by no means a small, fringe movement; on the contrary, they form the fastest-growing religious movement in the world. The gift of tongues is not reserved for a select few. Paul made it clear in 1 Cor. 14:5 that he wanted every believer to pray in tongues (for personal edification) and prophesy (to edify the church): “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy.”

    4. Did the gift of tongues cease after the first century, or is it still active today?

    The doctrine of cessationism is firmly entrenched in Reformed Christianity. This is the belief that the apostolic and charismatic gifts (including speaking in tongues) ceased after the original 12 apostles passed away. However, several notable early church fathers—such as Justin Martyr (100-165), Irenaeus (115-202), Tertullian (160-220), and Origen (185-254)—recorded that the spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues, were still active in the church in their days, long after John had passed away around 100 AD.

    Peter proclaimed in Acts 2:39 that the gift of tongues is for everyone who is called by God: “The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 13:8-9 that when that which is perfect comes, tongues will cease. That is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ.
    The Bible teaches that no one is perfect except Jesus. When Christ returns, we will not need to speak in tongues to communicate with God because we will be with Him. But until then, the gift of tongues is available to any believer who desires it.

    5. What are people saying when they pray in tongues?

    The Bible reveals five main things that happen when believers pray in tongues:

    1. They are speaking directly to God. 1 Corinthians 14:2, “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.” Tongues is an intimate and direct line of communication with God.

    2. They are declaring God’s wonders. Acts 2:11, “We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Far from being nonsense, when we pray in tongues we are actually declaring the wonders and mysteries and majesty of God. How could that possibly be a bad thing?

    3. They are praising God. Acts 10:46, “For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.” Even if we don’t understand what we are saying when we speak in tongues, we are praising God in the Spirit (1 Cor. 14:16).

    4. They are edifying themselves. 1 Cor. 14:4, “He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.” Praying in tongues is like a spiritual workout—it builds you up and makes you stronger spiritually.

    5. The Holy Spirit is praying through them, declaring God’s will. Romans 8:26-27,
    “We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express…because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.” Praying in the Spirit will bring revelation and insight into God’s will for your life.

    If you do not believe in the gift of tongues or have had a bad experience with the charismatic movement, I encourage you to the study the Scriptures with an open mind. Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth about tongues to you.

    If you desire the gift of tongues, pray for it in faith until you receive it. Jesus said in Luke 11:13, “How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” Sometimes we have to ask and keep on asking, seek and keep on seeking, and knock and keep on knocking until we receive our answer to prayer.

    If you already have the gift of tongues, use it every day. In 1 Cor. 14:18, Paul boasted about how often he prayed in tongues: “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.” Tongues is a real language, and as with any language, you have to use it in order to increase your fluency and vocabulary.

    Are there excesses and abuse with the use of the gift of tongues?
    Yes, of course, and they need to be corrected, but don’t throw out the baby with the bath water by rejecting the gift of tongues altogether. Let us take the words of the Apostle Paul in 1 Cor. 14:39 to heart: “Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues” (emphasis added.)
    Praise God for these timely revelations that God has given us.

    • @Eagle’s Eye – This is an interesting topic and thanks for the above points and it is worth spending some time discussing since we are all from TPM and from the day we are born we are exposed to this cacophony and we always thought it was from God because our parents in their ignorance said that we should not make fun of the Holy spirit as it is the unpardonable sin. Now I know this is not the unpardonable sin.
      If unknown tongues are a heavenly language, how could the onlookers on the day of Pentecost understand what the believers were saying?
      If you delve into Islam and hinduism(Kundalini), they also speak in gibberish similar to what the pentecostals/charismatics do? How do you distinguish which one is heavenly? Will the Holy Spirit allow a child of God to talk nonsense? make people jump like retards? It is something to ponder about.
      Also in TPM we measure one’s anointing based on the amount of noise you make, the current chief shepherd is a great example for that.

  10. Thanks Eagle’s eye for your detailed explanation. Thanks admin for sharing your personal experience on unknown tongues.

  11. Bro Johnson,

    You are most welcome.
    For your sake I forward a special clipping as stated in my previous commentary .
    You try to make more in roads in the spiritual realm that is being debated.Build a strong foundation..
    Through the grace of God, this site has been providing us an excellent platform and opportunity
    to learn the false teachings and false prophets that are being spread around all these years. And also this site brought us into light what is the real face of CULTISM. thar we must be aware of.
    We must be ever grateful to the Lord, the ALMIGHTY..At the same time I thank ADMN bro for his relentless efforts for helping us catch the culprits who deceived us all along these years.Hope you ‘ve got my point.Like you I was too sailing in the same boat. But thanks ,finally the Holy Spirit God opened my spiritual eyes of understanding to know who is the THIEF and who is the LORD.So long as the THIEF was wearing the cloak of the LORD, we had been duped as if he was the LORD but now we are redeemed by His grace. Now the cloak is exposed.The THIEF was caught.The real LORD is revealed. There is no more fear of this THIEF for us.
    Praise God

  12. @No More a Slave to Fear
    //This is an interesting topic and thanks for the above points and it is worth spending some time discussing since we are all from TPM and from the day we are born we are exposed to this cacophony and we always thought it was from God because our parents in their ignorance said that we should not make fun of the Holy spirit as it is the unpardonable sin. //

    True , NMSTF dear you raised the very relevant issues.Right from the days of our childhood, when we were growing, in the TPM Sunday School activity , we have been tutored not to question, whatever the trash spoken by the workers ( male/female). Thus our mind was brought under their perfect control that we hardly gave any work to our brains to think or question them. So when the critical issues like the ‘TONGUES SPEAKING’ come ,we were tutored, we never knew what was the fact and what was the lie.So in that way our faith life started and it went unabated and on and on…………So finally we reached such a stage that whatever centre pr says, it was OK. what ever CP says ,it was the VEDA ( divine). To that extent our minds were controlled.
    Now we are redeemed from this CULT , and the Holy Spirit has been with us in tandem and has taken total control of our beings. That is why by partnering with ADMN bro. we have been able to guide ,and direct many thousands of thousands new souls into the right path.daily. Many workers and believers have been secretly watching this site and are getting educated.
    I ‘ve selected from my archieves a very relevant clipping exclusively for our further discussion and debate the issue in depth. Brothers like Johnson who has been of late raising and participating the current issue would also be benefited by this clipping.
    Just click the link below and watch the dialogue between the two men who are well versed theologically. Perhaps many people may not be able to understand the accent spoken in the clipping Amazing truths are getting revealed in their conversation. They ‘ve discussed even the KUNDALINI spirit that you ‘ve raised.

    We keep continue the discussion.This is not ended now. I am going to give you some more updates on the very important topic you raised ….//If unknown tongues are a heavenly language, how could the onlookers on the day of Pentecost understand what the believers were saying?//

    Wishing you all the best.

  13. My thoughts of the Artwork:

    The artwork is the virtual reality we live in, seen from an outer dimension – The dimension of GOD. Based on the excerpts of the Letter to Romans, and other parts of the Scriptures.

    Before I start explaining the artwork. I just want to say a few things to impart Grace to fellow believers in the LORD.

    My walk in the LORD has been great since the day I bore a good conscience to live for Christ. Last July I was baptized, became an ex-sinner, an ex-tpmite. I thought things would now become easy, but it never is on our own strength. Instead, the journey led me to realize, that as a Truth-seeker, the path gets narrower than ever before, each and every time I get closer to GOD. Amidst sufferings, I consider it joy as for the LORD, knowing that the Glory that awaits us is worth all of the troubles we go through. It has helped me to unlearn many of the pre-conceived truths I was taught by Protestantism, especially Pentecost. This has been possible only by relying on The Spirit of GOD to teach me, rather than on some mortal men propagating their own agenda.

    The Letter to Romans by Paul helped me understand great Truths about our GOD and HIS plan for each one of us. Coincidentally, I came across this artwork when it first was posted as a puzzle. The Truth I understood from the letter to Romans is revealed in this picture. And since I am re-meditating on it again and again, I could immediately see what I have been reading and imagining in my heart is the same as depicted in this 16th century painting, even though it comes from the reformation period with Lutheranism and Calvinism, which I am not a fan of. The artwork is a good one by Hans Holbein, the younger.

    I am thankful to our GOD for directing my steps and am certain HE will continue to do so until the last day.

    I would also like to add a note to everyone here, and those who will come here in the future. Do not take everything as truth, rather let the Scriptures be interpreted by the Scriptures. Be as the Bereans. Let GOD do the teaching to you, any human can misread, twist or read his pre-conceived thoughts and opinions into the bible and mislead, deceive you into being the truth. While GOD only judges you based on the things you know, it does not mean HE will judge you based on your view, HE will still judge you based on HIS righteous judgement. Ignorance or amendment plea does not help. Man’s all, is to know GOD and keep HIS Commandments.

    So, don’t solely listen on your favourite pastor, the favourite brother or sister or me or anyone out here or elsewhere for teaching of the doctrines. Let GOD teach you. Remember, it was ‘trusting men’ that led us into being deceived, at the least for some part of our lives for some of us, be it in tpm or any church for that matter. Similarly, it is very possible to trust in men and again be deceived.

    The only reason we now see the Truth, that which we have read several times (some of us have had the bible from our childhood) and still did not understand it, is because we do not read the ‘whole matter’, but let others do the teaching for us. The Scriptures has been made available for us unlike in the past, let the Spirit of GOD lead us, only then we can be Children of GOD.

    Now, to the art in question:

    The Son of Man was foredained to die for us even before the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:20

    I shall be explaining in order from what I have understood, you can refer the label numbers mentioned on the art.

    1) Label 1

    Adam and Eve is being deceived by the Serpent

    The deceiving factors – 1 John 2:16

    “For all that is in the world – the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life – is not of the Father, but is of the world. ” Gen 3:6

    “The tree was good for food” (Lust of the flesh), “that it was pleasant to the eyes” (Lust of the eyes), and a “tree desirable to make one wise” (Pride of life).

    Their disobedience has led to nakedness – Fallen nature of Man.

    2) Label 4

    Sin has entered into his flesh. The end result is death, as opposed to the immortality before The Fall.

    3) Label 3

    GOD gives the Ten Commandments to rule the Nation of Israel. Sin is revealed.
    Whoever keeps the Law will live, whoever fails it, will incur death.

    4) Label 2

    A serpent is lifted in the wilderness symbolizing a future justification event of Jesus’s death on the Cross. In the background are the sojourning of the Israelites and manna being fed from heaven to their camps.

    5) Label 6

    Naked man – You, me and every man and woman out there without the Messiah to clothe our nakedness.

    6) Label 5

    Isaiah points out to the Virgin with the Child. The Messiah to be born.

    Isaiah 7 & 42 in summary

    There is a Man appointed by GOD, he is the LORD’s Servant, the beloved and only begotten Son of GOD, with whom HE shall share HIS glory and with none other.

    The Law did not make anything perfect. So, the O.T side has changed from Order to disorder
    Immortality to Mortal. Life to Death.

    A better covenant begins to unfold.

    7) Label 10

    Mary receives Grace depicted with baby Jesus, submitting herself to the Will of GOD.
    In the background below, Angel declares the good news to the shepherds, of the Messiah born in Bethlehem.

    8) Label 7

    John, the immerser, points out to Jesus, the Anointed One from GOD, the Lamb of GOD who shall take away the Sin. John 1:29

    9) Label 8

    Jesus seen with His disciples doing the will of His Father, fulfilling the mission He was foreordained for.

    10) Label 9

    Christ crucified on the Cross for all mankind. Became the curse (symbolizing the serpent) for our sins. The wrath that should have been poured upon us, was shown on Jesus, experiencing an extremely painful death, incomprehensible.

    11) Label 11

    Christ’s obedient unto death leads to GOD raising him up from the grave, death conquered.
    It is to be noted that, Jesus was tempted in all three ways just as Eve was tempted.

    Lust of the flesh – tempted to make bread to satisfy his hunger.
    Lust of the eyes – tempted with the ‘world offer’
    Pride of the flesh – tempted to abuse power.

    Jesus obeyed GOD, where Eve failed along with Adam. His obedience has led to Him being exalted – Christ. GOD gives Him the glory that was reserved for Him before the foundation of the world, on mission accomplishment.

    Similarly, each one of us will be tempted in the same way as Jesus was tempted. Just because something is available, does not make it ours, let us learn to follow the footsteps of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, in living a life obedient unto our death, for every man who believes in HIM and keeps HIS commandments will have the eternal life in the world to come, the glory that Jesus wants to share with us, so that we can be with HIM, in GOD’s kingdom.

    12) The tree can be seen as our lives in Law vs Grace.

    Our life without Christ is a lost cause, blind, depraved, wretched, dead. No matter what we do, we cannot be justified. The law cannot save us from sin. It reveals us that which we did not see in our state of ignorance and searing. It brings two laws within us.

    The law of sin – Our habits, behaviour in the flesh.
    The law of death – The curse that the law brings for those who fail to keep it.

    So, the law is holy, it is good. But we are bad. We serve the law with our mind, but serve the flesh with law of sin.

    This is our wretched state, not being able to do what we want to do, and doing what we do not want to do. But thanks to our GOD, who gave HIS only begotten Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ who has redeemed us from the law of sin (habits, behaviours that otherwise cannot be delivered from), and the law of death (curse of the law). We now serve the Law of Spirit through Jesus Christ, and it is possible through HIM, to do what we want, and to stop doing what we do not want to do. We are wilful slaves to GOD, because HE redeemed us with a price – The blood of HIS Son.

    We are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of GOD dwells in us.

    Read Romans 6,7,8 in one stretch, then you will be able to understand this subject where Paul refutes law observers in the period of Grace.

    The N.T side is restored from order to disorder.
    Mortal to Immortality. Death to Life.

    And so, will all of us be resurrected into Eternal life in the Kingdom to come.

    Feel free to write if any of you have any questions or corrections, I shall try to answer or correct myself.

    In hope,

  14. Eagle’s Eye has got some valid points on this subject unlike the rest of the people commenting here. It appears there are people like Bro. Vik G, Bro. No More a Slave to Fear and Bro. Johnson etc., have genuine interest in this topic.

    I wish I could write in detail on this topic but unfortunately time won’t suffice. I have gone through on various topics including this one but it fails to cover all the related verses but it is an excellent “go-to” website for many questions. Like someone said earlier, tongues is the most polarizing topic in the Christian world.

    Please check out the links below for answers to many questions you might have about tongues. I promise you, you will not be disappointed but hopefully appreciate the content and learn some mysteries. The content in the first link is quite lengthy but will answer so many questions.

    If after reading them you still have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask me. I will be happy to answer (hopefully if I find time).

    Note: You may not agree with some things on these websites but that does not automatically make them unreliable just like the Roman Catholic church which I believe is right with the doctrine of the Trinity though they are dead wrong on so many other things.

    alive by His Grace alone,

    • Thanks SFJ for sharing the links. In the first one, can you please explain what the author is trying to say in the below statement –

      “No matter how much love people show, no matter how much they shout and praise God, they don’t have the Holy Ghost until they speak with tongues. It’s the Bible way, the only way to receive Him. You have not been baptized in the Holy Ghost until He comes in and takes over your vocal organs and speaks in another tongue. Contrast that with the way the gift of the Holy Ghost is to be used in the congregation.”

      • Yes, I believe that unless a person is baptized with the evidence of speaking in tongues he has not received the Holy Spirit the way the apostles received and the pattern we see in the Bible. Did you check out the second link?

        At conversion, we acknowledge that we are sinners and the need for the true Savior. We put on Christ and try to imitate Him which is the work of the Holy Spirit resulting in a change in our character and attitude. Jeff Durbin explains this beautifully to a Mormon in one of his youtube videos how that when we receive Christ we stop liking the sinful life we enjoyed and what God likes becomes our liking and it is no more burdensome for us as it used to be as in Ezekiel 11:19. So, this is the reason why I believe people who are saved exhibit a change.

        If this does not answer your question or if you meant to ask me something else, let me know.

        • Thanks Brother for clarifying your position.

          Can you please let me know what happens when a person is born again? Does the Holy Spirit play any role in his salvation or is it something the sinner does on his own?

          Also what happens to someone who is born again but has not received the Holy Spirit when He dies? Where does he go to in eternity?

    • Can you please elaborate on this statement as well from the same author …

      “Some people think it impossible to be without spots, wrinkles or blemishes. Not so. You will not be caught into Heaven in the Rapture unless you, through the power of the Holy Ghost, get rid of the spots. For the Holy Ghost to change you in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, you will have to be completely yielded to Him.”

      • If you refer to my original comment, you will see that I mentioned we may not agree with everything a person says and that it does not invalidate something they said right. I too don’t agree with the author elsewhere in one of his books about pre-adamic civilization soulless man and so on. It is like saying everything Judas Iscariot said (including, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood”) was wrong because he was the thief.

        The intent of my comment was only on tongues as the evidence of baptism and more importantly that we should not be quick to judge anyone who is a tongue talker. I know there are people who have not accepted Christ but have better character than those who speak in tongues. I request you to stay on topic.

        • Brother, I’m very much on topic. You sent me a link, I read it and I felt that I needed more clarity on certain statements made in the article and I posted it for your quick reference.

          BTW I don’t judge anyone’s tongues because as I said before I don’t have the gifts of either understanding/interpreting them nor do I have the gift of discerning the spirits. But I have one thing which is the unchanging written Word of God and I try to measure everything against what it says.

          If someone wants to speak other tongues privately, so be it. All I’m asking is why are the Pentecostals and Charismatics defying Paul’s instructions about public speaking of tongues. Are these modern teachers greater than Paul? or are they wolves in sheep clothing teaching lies and defying what is written in the Holy Bible?

        • @NMSTF,
          Even though you do not have any special gift of discerning of Spirits, you can always discern if the tongue spoken by the person is right or wrong, on a longer period of time.
          1 Cor 14:4 says “Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves,….“.
          If after years of speaking in tongues (particularly every week on Saturdays and Sundays), if you see a person becoming more of a Pharisee than like Christ, rest assured his tongues have some real problems. It is most probably from his own spirit or from that wicked one. The Tongues that edifies oneself to become a Pharisee cannot be from God.

      • I responded to this comment an hour ago but it disappeared. After I posted my comment, it said it was awaiting moderation. Can anyone tell me why. I am new to commenting.

      • @NMSF,
        You asked me if the Holy Spirit has any role in the salvation of a person. I don’t know whether you intend to find out what my take is on this or if you are trying to catch me in my words. However, I will answer you briefly.

        According to I Cor 12: 3 we need the Holy Spirit to acknowledge that Jesus is God. However, on our part we should confess with our mouth and believe in our heart. “For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved” (Romans 10:9-11). When this is done, the Holy Spirit unites the believer with Christ and places him in the body of Christ, the church. (I Cor 12:13).

        According to Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.” While there are diverse interpretations of this passage, the implication clearly is that grace, salvation, and faith all proceed from God, and do not rise in the heart of the unsaved apart from an act of God.

        All the saved who die without the baptism of the Holy Spirit will still go to heaven. The only stipulation is in John 3:3 – Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. Heb 5: 9, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

        • Thanks Alex, does this imply that we will be having different places in Eternity – one for the haves(saved and Holy Spirit baptised) and the other for the have nots (just saved)? Doesn’t this make the Bride of Christ divided?

        • Sfj
          Your positions from your comment are as following. Correct me if I am wrong.

          // 1) According to you, there is only one evidence of having recived baptism of Holy Spirit and it is unknown tongues. //
          This contradicts Paul in 1 Corinthians 12;30. – ‘do all speak in tongues ?’

          Regarding your point of view of tongues as only evidence of baptism in Holy Spirit, I suppose you make your claims based on interpretation of events of Acts 2,8,10,19. Can you with full assurance say, that events mentioned in Acts are only for establishing pattern for readers ? Or is there possibility that the events are significative of God’s counsels in action and fullfilment ? Can you explain the usage of phrases like Whirlwind, tongues of fire, etc ? Can you explain why didn’t Whirlwind and tongues of fire reappeared in next baptism of Holy Ghost mentioned in Samaria and at house of Cornelius, if it was meant for establishing pattern? Are you sure – “that words and phrases used to describe events has nothing to do with the linking of new testament texts with Old Testaments?” For example, are you sure Acts 2, has nothing to do with coronation of Christ in heavenly places mentioned in Psalms 2 and various places in New Testament? Are you sure it has is nothing to do to indicate fulfilment of typology of Elijah taken up in heaven in “Whirlwind and fire” and at the same time Elisha his disciple recieving double power and ministry of Elijah through Whirlwind and fire, or its linking with burnt offerings? Are you sure that events in Acts has nothing to with what Christ said, “that you will be witness to me in Jerusalem (judah – Acts2) , Samaria ( Acts 8), and ends of world (Acts 10)? Has Holy Spirit for no reason mentioned that, “they heard them magnifying God (Acts 2:11)” and repeats it in Acts 10;46 – “they heard them magnify God”.. Are we to keep stressing on tongues when it does no edification to entire body of Christ (without gift of interpretation)? Why do pentecostals stress on tongues ? Isn’t it because it gives them edge to create schimism in body of Christ by despising them who do not speak in tongues? Why is there no stress on gift of charity and only in tongues?

          My point is that neither am I sure, nor are you, about the whole purpose of God in mentioning events in Acts the way they are. I am sure it has much deeper significance than merely for sake of establishing pattern for baptism of Holy Ghost. On the other hand, we have statements of Paul in clear words saying, not all men recieve gifts of tongues. So i suggest to stop arguing that tongues is only evidence, unless you have Scriptures which say so.

          2) According to you, a person cannot be raptured if he hasn’t got baptism of Holy Spirit, and still a person can be saved and inherit heaven.

          I’m confused … First of all I don’t believe in secret rapture etc. I only believe in second coming of Christ in clouds (Acts 1:11). Much support for it is available on this site. Secondly I dont believe in various categories in heaven for those who are only saved and those are baptized in Spirit with evidence of tongues. If there are no categorization then what’s the point in getting baptized and getting merely saved?

          As admin said, there is no end to debate on this topic. All we are saying is tongues must be spoken as per instructions in 1 Corinthians 14 – decently and orderly, unlike tpm which is gross violation of Scriptures.

        • @Nath

          Scripture does not refute Scripture. Contradiction is in the mind of the reader. Luke 24:25 – Then He opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures…

          Some people ask, where is the wind, where is the fire.
          When the Law was given in the Old Testament, the trumpet sounded, fire ran on the ground, the angels of God were there. Sinai shook and trembled, but the point was that the Law was given. The Law wasn’t in the fire, in the earthquake, it wasn’t in the trumpet sound; the Law was the Word of God.

          At Pentecost neither the fire nor the wind was the paramount thing: it was the Holy Ghost. The wind and fire showed that the Holy Ghost had arrived, evidence for the disciples of that power from On High. Never before had they seen anyone receive the Holy Ghost. Because they believed the truth, the ones who had been told to tarry in Jerusalem were in the Upper Room waiting for Him. When the Holy Ghost came, He convinced them it was He even before they spoke in tongues. They hadn’t known, really, what to look for; they just knew somehow they would receive that power from On High. The Holy Ghost would baptize them and live on the inside of them. As Jesus had glorified the Father, the Holy Ghost would glorify Jesus.

          The impact of God’s greatness overwhelmed them just as the impact of His greatness left the people awe-stricken when the Law was given.
          The wind and fire on the day of Pentecost were symbols of the presence of the Holy Spirit. Those in the Upper Room heard the wind, saw the fire. But they were not baptized until they spoke in tongues. The wind didn’t baptize them. Cloven tongues like as of fire sat on each one of them, and they began to speak in tongues as the Spirit gave utterance.

          You said, “Are we to keep stressing on tongues when it does no edification to entire body of Christ (without gift of interpretation)? Why do pentecostals stress on tongues ? Isn’t it because it gives them edge to create schimism in body of Christ by despising them who do not speak in tongues? Why is there no stress on gift of charity and only in tongues?”

          Answers to most of the questions that have been asked on this website by everyone has been answered by me in one form or the other. You only need to read my comments carefully and find them. Pentecostals stress on tongues because we understand how much one can benefit from speaking in tongues. You can look up the Bible to find verses yourself. No, it does not give us an edge over anything you maintain. I don’t insist on sending or constrain my kids to go to school because I want to despise the less privileged. There is very little anyone who can do to stop divisions because divisions are permitted by God. I Cor 11:19 – For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. I understand there may be some people who despise those who don’t speak in tongues. It happened to me! It only goes to show how spiritually deficient they are. We stress more on love, care and character. I Cor 13 – If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

          Paul did not say all men don’t speak in tongues, rather he said the gift of tongues was not for all men. I agree, we should stop arguing over this thing because I believe what I have commented will be beneficial to at least a handful who will be strengthened in their position.

          I do believe that Jesus will come on the clouds of heaven. Whatever you believe in the second coming of the Lord or different places being in heaven or not being there etc., please continue to believe. I’m glad this site worked for you and so many others. I would like to learn more based on Scriptures.


    • one more video about Rev Ernest Ongley…check it out.

      Thank God for the internet which allows us to verify and validate information .

          Brother, since you are not able to see the youtube video, I’m sending you a link to a newspaper article about Ernest Angley, who is the author of one of the links you posted. If you want to know more about this charlatan, please google his name. In addition to his strange lifestyle, he used to run a Buffet restaurant to help spread his gospel.

          How can we give any credibility to the teachings of such a person who life does not bear the fruits of the spirit? These are wolves in sheep’s clothing just doing the bidding of their father, Satan, the author of all lies.

          All I’m saying is that we should be very careful about the source of our doctrines.

  15. Liked this following excerpt from the first link ( what’s praying in tongues?)sent by NMSTF bro who could painstakingly collect it and forwarded it for the benefit of this site.This could safely answer my long pending doubt that how could he/she Witches speak in tongues that would mar the very purpose of speaking in tongues. Fortunately this site was instrumental in displaying a video clipping earlier. Example : Sr Jyothi Rani could threaten the believers around her by speaking her own way of speaking in tongues.Now connect my comment to this following excerpt:

    //Second, many of the cults and world religions also report occurrences of speaking in tongues/praying in tongues. Obviously the Holy Spirit is not gifting these unbelieving individuals. So, it seems that the demons are able to counterfeit the gift of speaking in tongues. This should cause us to compare even more carefully our experiences with Scripture. Third, studies have shown how speaking/praying in tongues can be a learned behavior. Through hearing and observing others speak in tongues, a person can learn the procedure, even subconsciously. This is the most likely explanation for the vast majority of instances of speaking/praying in tongues among Christians. Fourth, the feeling of “self-edification” is natural. The human body produces adrenaline and endorphins when it experiences something new, exciting, emotional, and/or disconnected from rational thought.//

    Yes, this kind of heavy churning action should finally help us zeroing all the impending doubts we have so far . Good work brother. I ‘ve to yet to go through his second clipping namely ,praying in spirit.

    • It is true that those who are possessed can also speak in tongues but they only speak blasphemous things against God.

      From what I understand, there are tongues of Angels (I Cor 13:1). People who are possessed (II Cor 12: 14) probably speak in tongues of men or of the angles but only a person who has the gift to interpret tongues (I Cor 12: 10) can understand that they are speaking blasphemy. The only other person who can crack this is the one who has the gift of discerning spirits who can tell whether someone is truly speaking in tongues or if it is an evil spirit speaking.

      I have also heard that in some churches they teach people (words) how to speak in tongues which are gibberish. Tongues cannot be taught by human beings but is the gift of God.

      This is a very interesting subject and also very profound.


      • @Alex, so how will a simple believer like me, not having the either the gift of discernment nor the gift of interpretation, know if the Pastor is blaspheming or praising God when he is speaking in tongues.

        Don’t you think this is the reason we have so many pentecostal crooks floating around deceiving millions.

        • Dear Brother NMSTF,

          Did you go through the links I posted earlier?

          I never said all believers should have the nine gifts listed out in the Bible. As the Bible says, the Holy Spirit will distribute to each one gifts individually just as He wills. He knows what is best for us and what is our calling. This does not in anyway negate the verse that says one should not forbid speaking in tongues. I was only telling who can easily tell whether someone is blaspheming God or praising, glorifying Him etc,.

          I agree, not everyone can tell apart which pastor is good and which one is not. As the Bible says, we will only know them by their fruits and I believe when a believer is genuinely seeking to find God and a right fellowship, the Holy Spirit will guide him/her to the right place.

          Personally I don’t like to go around trying to find out whether someone has the right spirit or not. I would surely warn people not to associate with someone if I knew something was not right with him. I also believe there are some people who might have a burden to do that blowing the whistle. I’m more cautious about standing in my own calling and the general calling of every believer.

          True, there are many Pentecostal so-called pastors fooling around with their congregation deceiving themselves and anyone who follows them. Like the Bereans, it is our responsibility to learn for ourselves what we heard from the pulpit aligns with the Word of God or not.


        • @Alex,

          Why are the Pentecostals and Charismatics obsessed with Tongues. It is mentioned once in the Gospels, on a few instances in Acts and never in any epistles of Paul except to the Corinthians. Why is it so? Was this experience only seen in the Corinthian Church? Does this mean that the Pentecostals and Charismatics are the modern day Corinthian Church? I’m open for correction.

          I was born and brought up in TPM but these questions have been bothering me since I quit TPM, and it provokes me to dig deeper into this gift which is useless as far as edification of the Church is concerned. It divides the body of Christ and creates a class system .

          I have attended IPC, AOG and COG meetings and it is worse there. Why would God confuse His own children with such a gift? I have nothing against this gift being used privately or to evangelise but public speaking in church meetings and openly defying Paul’s directions makes me question its source. And you saying that if you don’t speak in tongues, you don’t have the Holy Spirit is hard for me to accept.

          I would love to know from anyone if Charles Spurgeon or Jonathan Edwards or any of the Reformers write about this gift.

    • @NMSTF,

      Thank you brother for your reply.

      I understand we are living in perilous times and things have gone from bad to worse. Imitating the Bereans is compulsory. Like in the story of the disobedient prophet (I Kings 13), we understand God entrusted this man with unfolding the divine judgments to King Jeroboam. He was not to eat or drink water in that place. Later in the story, he listened to the older prophet who was a wicked lair but when they sat at the table God spoke THROUGH the lying prophet. We can find more examples in the Bible like this where God used or spoke through ungodly people. Some people have fallen which means they did stand at some point in their calling because you have to stand first to fall.

      I am not saying we should attend his meetings or endorse all that he did or said. Definitely, the man got saved and had good intentions of serving God at least initially. I will not judge him because I cannot see his heart how it is right now. He may have converted from his sins or is still struggling with it. Only God knows.

      Finally, Paul himself said (I Cor 9:27) he did not want to become a castaway after he had preached so much. I understand preaching is different from practicing but God expects both from us. Matt 23: 3 – therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

      • Today’s Charismatic churches are demonstrating the Tower of Babel through their unintelligible gibberish.

        If a person speaks in tongues, his spirit should have the peace that God is using his vocals to add vocabulary that might not be easily understood in the strictest sense.

        On the day of Pentecost, it’s was true foreign language spoken and there were people who were convicted by those words.

        Our God is the WORD and not chaos.
        In Genesis 1, the spirit hovered above the chaos and was not a part of the chaos and the WORD brought order and life.

        On the other hand, I am also of the opinion that speaking in tongues (genuinely) is an agent against demonic powers within the church.

        We cannot simply conclude that all external church gatherers are delivered, even if they are saved.
        A lot of them are not transformed at a level where faith can operate and it’s for such people the faculties of the law abide, like a child in tutelage.
        I don’t encourage people being whipped into a frenzy just to experience euphoria.
        That’s the fake.

        But: There could be occasions when the spirit expresses in a tongue not understandable and the speaker should have a good conscience that he is not making noise.
        The simplest solution would be for everyone who speaks in tongues to earnestly weigh their own spirits and also covet the gift of interpretation of tongues.

        A spiritual battle is never fought within the church setting alone, but to be honest it’s usually in a gathering that evil forces reveal their frustration.

        I am aware of few instances where a person started foaming after being filled in the spirit. So the question is which spirit.

        Most of today’s gatherings are man made but God in his mercy still uses weak men to reveal his power. But to assume that noise is the real agency of the Godhead is to contradict the entire Scripture especially Genesis 1.

        As far as the gift vs. fruit debate, my take is that fruits take time to ripen whereas gifts are implements to help ripen the yield.

        If gifts and fruits contradict after much time is given ( refer parables) know that you are seeing a fake.

        In my tabulation, the fakers outnumber the ones who are possessed with a masquerading spirit.
        Word based Christians then end up deciding which one is the lesser evil, which makes it more irrelevant.

        If only every child of God were to fed the sincere milk of the Word, the possibilities of large scale deception would decline.

        I couldn’t contribute much in terms of comments as I have lost my laptop and I find it difficult to write long comments using the mobile phone.
        I must say that I am encouraged by this site.

    • Agreed, we know them by their fruits and not by their gifts. God gives the gift to an individual not because He loves them more or that they are better than the others. It is my understanding that He loves the Church so much and for her enrichment, growth, edification etc., that God gives someone a gift. God entrusts man with His gift but it is heart of man that is desperately wicked that swerves out of the way led by the greed for fame, name and money.

      I would also like to add that we can sometimes find those who serve God (faithfully) with a fault or weakness. Not as a babe in Christ but as matured men, we must try to adjust with them knowing they are also human beings just like us and discuss with them personally and taking it to God in prayer.

      For some reason I cannot see what video you have posted. It is completely grayed out. This may be because I’m using my work computer where certain things might be blocked or disabled. Share the link and I will know what you are talking about.

  16. From sfJ’s comment //I never said all believers should have the nine gifts listed out in the Bible.

    As per Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

    All these are available to belivers of Christ as per the above verse. All (healing, tongues, etc) are available to those who believe in Him but only some of them desire to get it initiated. I would like to share my personal experience. I understood TPM has wrong doctrines and decided to quit. During those initial stages I was meditating the above verse. Then my friend had pain on her thumbs and shoulders. I suddenly had an urge to try if healing can occur according to the above verse. So I commanded ” The demon which causes pain in her , Just leave away in the name of Jesus” . Then I asked her how did u feel ? She told pain went. It was like writing an exam for me. Then many healing started to happen in Jesus name. Recently I came across a site which explained clearly how to heal the sick. But there are some cases where healing does not take place instantly. I learnt a lot while healing the sick. Once we have thirst to bring people to Jesus He will give the gifts as needed. But life will be exciting , interesting full of super natural experiences , joy , peace once we start working for Him with those gifts he gives us and I am a happy recipient 🙂

    • Context is everything. I would like to stress again, I was only replying to NMSTF that it does not mean every believer in Christ should have the the gift of discerning spirits or the gift to interpret tongues.

      By the way, casting out demons is not a gift to be received. Most important thing needed to cast out demons is FAITH. This is what the verse you quoted means in context. The Bible also talks about casting out demons which was not possible by the disciples because they did not fast enough and pray. Every believer can do supernatural things through faith.

      There is a difference between a person who can heal someone with only faith and someone who has the gift of healing. Both will be on different levels. James 5:5 says ‘prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick’.

      I always avoided commenting because I have seen and understand that there is no end to arguing and debating. I came here only to discuss tongues. We can debate any topic but it is makes one weary and lose interest when people want to select a specific word or line from a comment and there is no end to discussing things.

      • This topic about tongues will never end. It has not stopped since generations and I have no doubt that it will continue for more.
        So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. Romans 14:22

        • Since the time of the apostles, there seems to be division in the church over this topic. I wanted to reply to NMSTF but I don’t see the reply button to which comment I want to reply to???

          Do you only have the option to mark the text in red? I’m new to commenting so I want to find out how to do it.

          Can you explain why you quoted Romans 14:22.

        • @sfj
          The Reply has been put at max 4 levels. That is why you do not get to see the Reply buttons beyond the 4th level. This needs to be done for the page layout.

          As far as Romans 14:22 is concerned, it is about a subject which we should not be splitting hairs. It’s ok to believe either way. Though Romans 14 is about food habits, this logic can also be applied to the Holy Spirit Baptism evidence issue.
          Some Believe that you need to speak in tongues as an evidence of Holy Spirit Baptism and Some do not believe so. Both sides have their own arguments. I think it’s better to leave where you stand. Need not contest the topic. It will never end.

        • @admin
          This verse could easily be applied to substantiate my point.

          Eats only vegetables: As an example of a doubtful thing, Paul looks at those who refuse to eat meat for a spiritual reason. Perhaps they refused it because they feared it was meat sacrificed to a pagan god (as in 1 Corinthians 8). Perhaps they refused the meat because it wasn’t kosher, and they stuck to Jewish dietary regulations and traditions. Because some Christians saw nothing wrong in this meat and others saw much wrong in it, this was a burning issue among believers in Paul’s day.

          He who is weak eats only vegetables: In Paul’s mind, the weak brother is the stricter one. It wasn’t that they were weaker in their Christian life because of what they ate or didn’t eat, but they were weaker because of their legalistic attitudes and lack of love towards others.

          Undoubtedly these weak ones did not see themselves as weaker. It’s likely they thought they were the strong ones, and the meat-eaters were the weak ones. Legalism has a way of making us think that we are strong and those who don’t keep the rules the way we do are weak.
          (Rom 14:5-6) Judging our brother is inappropriate because these are matters of conscience. (Rom 14:19-21) Use your liberty to build each other up, not to tear each other down.

          Romans 14:22 – Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves: Not every Christian knows this happiness. There are things God may challenge us to give up, but we go on approving them in our life – thus we condemn ourselves. It may not be that they thing itself is clearly good or bad, but it is enough that God has spoken to us about this matter.

        • Brother, you are making HUGE assumptions to derive your points. These assumptions are not really supported in the scripture we focussed on. You are clearly missing the bigger picture of Paul saying we need not quarrel over things which the scripture has not said anything. I do not see any reason for a Back and Forth on this subject.

        • @admin
          First Corinthians 14: 12,13: Forasmuch as ye are zealous of SPIRITUAL GIFTS, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaks in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. The devotional tongue, spoken around the altar, edifies the speaker and is not to be confused with the congregational tongue that edifies the assembly as a whole. In the devotional tongue at the altar, the Holy Ghost speaks through the individual for that one’s edification, and there is no interpretation. In the congregational tongue, however, there will be an interpretation; the Holy Ghost begins to speak and everyone becomes quiet and listens. It is one message for all, and is meant to be understood.

          Paul describes how the congregational tongue is regulated: If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret (I Corinthians 14:27). Paul is not speaking about the evidence, but the gift of tongues. It’s the same Holy Ghost, but different in operation.

          I have seen several times people use this gift and people who have the gift of interpretation interpret what was spoken.

          About the letter killing and the Spirit making alive, we need to read this in context.
          Not of the letter but of the Spirit: When Paul contrasts the letter and the Spirit, he isn’t favoring “experience” over “the word,” nor is he favoring allegorical interpretation over a literal understanding of the Bible. Rather Paul shows the superiority of the new covenant over the old covenant.

          The letter is the law in its outward sense, written on tablets of stone. The letter of the law came by the old covenant. It was good in itself, but it gave us no power to serve God, and it did not change our heart; it simply told us what to do. Paul can say the letter kills because the law, exposing our guilt, “kills” us before God. The law thoroughly and completely establishes our guilt.

          Paul expresses this point well in Romans 7:5-6: For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

          The indwelling Spirit then becomes for us a law written on our hearts. He is in us to guide us and be our “law.” It isn’t that the Holy Spirit replaces the written law, but completes and fulfills the work of the written law in our hearts. The Spirit gives life, and with this spiritual life, we can live out the law of God.

        • //I have seen several times people use this gift and people who have the gift of interpretation interpret what was spoken.
          How did you know the interpreter interpreted it Right? I too have heard of those in TPM. But if you analyze the unknown tongues, you will know that they are very monotonous syllables and the interpreter is making it up. Do not be Naive to believe in those bluffs. Even the words by the interpreter are more Zion Centric eager to establish the TPM false Doctrine. Moreover, it’s one Clergy interpreting for another Clergy..Kinda fixed match. You may believe in various classifications like a “congregational Tongue” and “a Devotional Tongue”, but you really need to twist the scriptures to believe those things. It’s Hilarious that you feel the CONGREGATIONAL TONGUE need to be regulated but at the same time, DEVOTIONAL TONGUE can be used. But somehow you seem to be missing out on the bigger picture about orderly conduct in the service. This is the problem with people who are too adamant about their understanding of the scriptures and want to push that on somebody else. A plain reading of the chapter will give you enough information that you should not make any noise which does not make sense to others. What TPM Does is truly violating that. PLEASE STOP ARGUING FOR THAT PRACTICE.

          As far as the Letter vs Spirit Problem is concerned, I think this will be understood by the Parable of the Good Samaritan rather than any long sermons. You seem to be going in a tangent. When you try to wriggle through scriptures making your own classifications without understanding the Bigger picture is what I say following the Letter but Missing the Spirit.

        • @admin
          Thank you for letting me know how commenting works.

          I would not apply Romans 14:22 logic here because the topic at hand is more like doctrine based than conscience. The Bible says if a person thinks it is wrong to eat food offered to idols he should not eat it or it would become sin to him.

          I noticed on your home page, it said “stop speaking in tongues and telling lies in English”. Though the message is aimed at TPM or any other denomination it looks very generalized when the Bible says we should not forbid speaking in tongues.

          Also, if we should stop discussing this issue like you suggest, does it not apply to everyone?

        • Romans 14 is NOT about eating food offered to Idols. It is about personal preferences including Vegetarian food vs Non-Veg food. What Paul is saying is that your personal preferences and beliefs have room in Christianity where the scripture is not mandating any conditions. In the same way, if you believe that Speaking in tongues is NOT a mandatory element for Baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is Fine. There is No condemnation in that. Holy Spirit is not limited to come over a person with some signature. He is truly UNLIMITED and he does it best. We need to understand the SPIRIT of God which is the primary reason for us to be led by the Spirit.
          …not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life 2 Cor 3:6

        • @sfj
          //“stop speaking in tongues and telling lies in English”.
          This message is for the ones that make a big issue about speaking in tongues as the evidence of Holy Spirit Baptism but is living their lives in opposition to the leading of the Spirit.

          //Though the message is aimed at TPM or any other denomination it looks very generalized when the Bible says we should not forbid speaking in tongues.

          I Myself speak in tongues. Therefore there is no question of me forbidding speaking in tongues. But we need to understand the intent of the author of 1 Cor 14. He says do not speak in tongues audibly when you are in a meeting gathering and there is nobody to interpret(vs 28). However, we may speak in tongues when in private.

        • Dear Admin

          I strongly feel that you do not want to accept when someone disagrees with you. You ALWAYS want to have the last word.

          I hate twisting Scriptures because I understand its seriousness and consequence.

          I don’t understand how what I believe can be HILARIOUS to you when I am presenting it sincerely. As much as I wish to put forth my reasoning against your arguments, I will refrain seeing there is very little effect.

          Thank you

        • Dear SFJ,
          I did mention to you earlier that there could be disagreements and these disagreements are really nitpicking which are not core to Christianity. Splitting hairs on inconsequential matters are to be avoided. Hence you should understand that. Moreover, your arguments have no scriptural validity.
          Let us take this topic itself…Show me where exactly you can frame a doctrine that classifies Congregational Tongue and a Devotional Tongue? Where exactly you can get that Making sounds of Devotional Tongue is acceptable whereas making sounds of Congregational tongue is to be regulated?

  17. I forgot to mention this in the above comment. Regarding healing gift I can personally experience how Jesus has used me to heal the sick. But I do speak in tongues. But I have not any experienced supernatural things (Acts 2:8). So I guess the unknown tongues what I get in prayer is as per Romans 8:26 to 28. This is the overall conclusion I got after examining my personal life and experiences. Hope it would help some of you reading this comment .

  18. Dear Admin, don’t criticize TPM. God will judge everybody. These kind of websites will disrepute the Lord and His name. Why do you has this much grudge against TPM? Praying for you….

  19. Am also born and brought up with TPM family… I do have more doubts about speaking in tongues. Because, When worshiping part comes on Every Sunday service, regularly some believers start speaking in tongues(unknown language) and the holy ghost comes to them and end up with GOD is saying..

    My Question here is:
    1) Every week when they start speaking tongues they speak only same language which i can here for more than 20 years / more. I can identify who is speaking in tongues based on his unknown language. because they speak the same unknown language for every Sunday.

    Will GOD speak tongues(unknown language) to believers in the church..??

    see the below youtube link this guy is speaking some unknown language and interesting the same in TAMIL language like prophecy..

    Will GOD speak same unknown tongues for

    • Dear Sfj,
      It looks like you are leaving this site. I have seen your comments and personally feel you have zeal for the word of God and you want to know the truth. Please participate in the discussions even though if others have disagreement with you. I have enlightened by the articles and the comments through this site even though I have disagreement with some of the information like I believe in rapture but others don’t believe.

      • Hmm..Very Interesting. Where is it mentioned that we do not believe in the Rapture? I believe in Rapture AFTER THE TRIBULATION, whereas TPM believes in a partial rapture before the Tribulation.

  20. Oh sorry. It’s my mistake. I meant to say pretribulation rapture. Most of the people from Indian Pentecostal churches were taught pretribulation rapture from the childhood and also once they are saved.

  21. Dear Admin,
    I request you to read the section “2) The Rapture is described as occurring at any time without warning.” in the below link.
    I don’t believe any other verses except this verse.

    Matthew 24:42,44 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come… So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him

    If antichrist is revealed to the people then easily anyone can know the day our Lord will come. It is any day after the completion of 7 years. Does it make sense right?

    • Brother,
      I will read the link you sent.
      UPDATE – I did read it, it just goes in the predictable lines of the umpteen sites going on the lines of the LEFT BEHIND SERIES. This has serious flaws and has been addressed by many of other sites too. You ask some basic questions and they are left without an answer.

      The scripture you quoted seems to be excluding the vs 43 which is very key to the interpretation. It’s about how the coming of the Lord will be as a Thief/Robber coming.
      42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

      So to understand how the apostles understood it and explained it, you need to go to 1 Thess 5. Read especially vs 4-6

      4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

      Clearly, it is the people of the world who are asleep (Spiritually) who will be caught by surprise. If you are the children of Light, you will NOT be caught unawares.

      I fail to understand how did you get the 7 year period as the tribulation period. Can you please help me with that?

  22. Dear Admin,
    I read the verse 1 Thessalonians 5:4 in many translations. Some of the important translations are:

    But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
    But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief.
    But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    But you, [a]believers, [all you who believe in Christ as Savior and acknowledge Him as God’s Son] are not in spiritual darkness [nor held by its power], that the day [of judgment] would overtake you [by surprise] like a thief;

    From the above translations, I interpret like this.
    Believers in Thessalonians are fully aware of the truth about Jesus’s second coming. Here St. Paul encourages believers that the day of the Lord would not surprise them or overtake them because they are not living in the darkness which means they shouldn’t be afraid about the day of the Lord because they will be surely captured in the second coming of the Lord since they are living in the light. It doesn’t mean that they know the date and timing of the day when will Jesus will return to the earth and those living under the dark don’t know day of the Jesus second coming.

    Please see also the verse 1 Thessalonians 5:9 in support of the above interpretation. Those who are under the light (in Jesus) will escape the wrath of the Lord.
    “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    We don’t have any Bible verse to plainly say the tribulation period is seven years but we interpret from the below verse:

    Daniel 9:27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

    We interpret one week from the above as 7 days which means seven years. This interpretation is based on the other verses from the same chapter.

    But, we have some bible verses to strongly say the great tribulation period is 3 1/2 years.

    Daniel 7:25
    ” And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”
    Revelation 13:5
    “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.”

    • 1 Thess 5:9 is about eternal Damnation and not about Tribulation. Tribulation is Not God’s wrath. Where did you get that idea that Tribulation is God’s Wrath? If that was so Jesus would have great trouble for uttering his words in John 16:33. Tribulation is Satan’s Wrath on the Church.
      St Paul says the Time of the Great tribulation very explicitly in 2 Thess. In fact, he says that we will see the Son of Perdition it means we will be there in the time of the Tribulation. Which means the coming of the Lord is a POST TRIB Event.

      Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thess 2:1-4

      According to the above verses, St Paul says that it is a DECEPTION(vs 3) to teach that Jesus would come before the tribulation.

      There is no place where you can infer a 7-year tribulation unless you twist the context. Yes a 3.5 years tribulation is what I support.

  23. Admin,
    Let’s us come to apply the word of God in practical life. Jesus told that no one knows the day of the Lord except the Father. If it so, you are saying it will come after the great tribulation and 3 1/2 years after antichrist is revealed. It contradicts what Jesus had told.
    Jesus told us to wait for his second coming but it looks like all post-tribulationists wait for the antichrist return.
    Suppose as you said let us assume Jesus would come after the great tribulation, let us assume around 10 crore true Christians are present in the earth after antichrist arrival. All those 10 crore true believers will certainly know that antichrist is revealed and great tribulation has started, every day they will count number of days Jesus will come back to earth like 1260 more days (31/2 years) to go, 1259 days to go, 1258 days to go…..I don’t agree with this. Surely this will happen as per the post-tribulationist view contracting Jesus words.

    • Brother,
      Why don’t you quote the scriptures to prove your point? Let me quote it for you in context from Matt 24.
      35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
      36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

      How did you come to Vs 36 without reading vs 29-31? Shall we go to that? It makes pretty clear that Jesus comes at the end of tribulation as per verse 29-31.
      But how long after the Tribulation is not known. You need to understand the context. After the tribulation the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not give light and the stars will fall from heaven. Did Jesus say how long is this celestial event going to happen? NO. It may take years or months or days …All that we know is that the TRIBULATION IS OVER. There is a definite gap between the tribulation and the physical coming of the Lord.
      So please get that calculation mentality out of your mind. Moreover, vs 22 clearly says that even the 3.5 years could be shortened..

      Now coming to your point about vs 36. Do you think Jesus was messed up in his understanding about his coming of clearly saying the signs and then putting in ambiguity about No One knows the day or the hour? The context of vs 36 is set already in vs 35. He is mentioning that DAY when the heaven and the earth shall pass away. That particular day comes at least 1000 years after his second coming. Please do not attribute dichotomy to Jesus statements. Vs 35 and 36 is about the END of the Earth question of the disciples in vs 3. Whereas vs 29-31 is about his second coming part of the disciples’ question. Let us be clear about that part and not mix it up.

      The Time of the DAY OF THE LORD(Second Coming) is NOT The Time of the Day when the HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSES AWAY

  24. Admin,
    Still I am not clear. You said “There is a definite gap between the tribulation and the physical coming of the Lord.” but where is the biblical verse, we cannot assume that there is some gap and it might be years, weeks or days..

    Jesus clearly told it will be immediately after the tribulation. Please don’t say immediately means not exactly at end of the tribulation.
    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”

    Antichrist will rule the earth and torture Christians for 3.5 years and if the tribulation is over means will he be silent after 3.5 years of tribulation till the time Jesus returns to the earth?
    These are the days said by Daniel that knowledge will become more and everyone knows all things about end days while compared to the olds days. So these type of questions will arise in every mind and bible should have answer.

    • //Jesus clearly told it will be immediately after the tribulation. Please don’t say immediately means not exactly at the end of the tribulation.
      “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”

      Why do you fail to understand this statement which you yourself has quoted? Immediately after the tribulation, starts the cosmic event and not the coming of the Lord. After that, the Sign of the Son of Man happens. Read vs 30 clearly it says THEN will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.”. So it will not precede the cosmic events. It will be AFTER the cosmic events not simultaneously as you assume to be. Now cosmic events of this nature will happen not in a matter of seconds or minutes. You have to give it due time. This is because this is the time when the Day of The Lord is starting. It is a VERY LONG DAY (1000 years long). This is mentioned in Zac 14:6-7. As the day is supposed to be a dark day(only faint light like evenings), the first action is to remove the lights of these celestial objects.This light removal is in Matt 24:29. Do not be unwise to assume that all things will happen on the same day. This minor gap between the tribulation end to the coming of the lord (time of the celestial events) can be seen in Daniel 12:11-12. Therefore let us not be dogmatic about calculating it.

      We are not expected to count the days and do mathematical calculations, Rather follow the signs which was said by the Lord and expect his coming. The wicked will NOT expect this meltdown as they will be happy under the leadership of the Son of Perdition. Please also be made clear that more than huge majority of true Christians will be removed out of the world by then by death and executions. This is clear from the verses at 1 Thess 4:17 which mentions “After that, we who are still alive and are LEFT…. “ The construct of the statement clearly says only few will be alive and are left from the great tribulation. This is also echoed in the statement of Jesus in Matt 24:21-22.

      But whatever it is you will be hardpressed to find even one verse which says the coming of the Lord will be Before the Tribulation. I am waiting for you to give me that.

  25. Admin,
    I am adding few more things,
    Who are those holy ones or saints returning to the earth along with Jesus in his second coming as mentioned in Jude 14, Zechariah 14: 5 and 1 Thessalonians 3:13?
    Who are these nations or kings of the earth mentioned in Revelation 21:24?
    “The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.”
    How does this fit in the post-tribulation belief?

    • //Who are those holy ones or saints returning to the earth along with Jesus in his second coming as mentioned in Jude 14, Zechariah 14: 5 and 1 Thessalonians 3:13?

      These are the ones who had died and was resurrected in the First Resurrection. (John 6:40,44,54, Rev 20:6,1 Cor 15:23)

      in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

      This includes all his saints of ALL TIMES. They will be caught up in the Air to welcome Christ at his coming (1 Thess 4:17) and come along with him back to earth.
      For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thess 4:14
      The spirits of the saints which rests in Jesus will come along with him and receive an immortal body(via resurrection) along with we who are alive in this earth.

      The Second coming of the Lord is called Parousia(24 times in the bible). Parousia is the Word which used to denote the event when Important officials will go out of the city mid-way to receive the King when he comes back. So similarly we are those important officials (His redeemed ones) who will go to Mid-Air to receive Christ at his second coming and escort him to this earth so that He will reign. We need to understand that our meeting will happen in Mid-Air (Earth’s atmosphere). It’s not in heaven. It is very similar to we going to receive a loved one at the Airport just outside the city limits and escorting him/her to our home.

    • //Who are these nations or kings of the earth mentioned in Revelation 21:24?
      “The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.”
      How does this fit in the post-tribulation belief?

      What exactly in the post-tribulation belief does not fit here? Can you elaborate your point a bit more?

  26. Sorry, missed to add more point.
    Who are the inhabitants of the earth during millennium reign of Christ? All resurrected believers will reign along with Christ.

  27. //Who are these nations or kings of the earth mentioned in Revelation 21:24?
    //“The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.”
    //What exactly in the post-tribulation belief does not fit here? Can you elaborate your point a bit more?

    Pre-tribulation theory says that these nations or kings will be the people who are saved in the tribulation period and they inhibit the earth during millennial period and will be reigned by Jesus and resurrected saints. They also will be the people who live on the new earth outside New Jerusalem in the eternity. So these contradicting verses fit in the bible according to the pre-tribulation theory but I searched many post-tribulation supporting sites but I couldn’t find any explanation supporting these verses according to their post-tribulation theory.

    Secondly, you said
    //These are the ones who had died and was resurrected in the First Resurrection. (John 6:40,44,54, Rev 20:6,1 Cor 15:23)
    I have read some of the interpretation of Jude 14, Zechariah 14: 5 and it says the holy ones are the angels who accompany Jesus on his second return. This correctly matches the post-tribulation theory not contradicting.
    I am comparing post and pre tribulationist view which doesn’t contradict bible verses mentioned in the bible about Jesus second coming

    • //Pre-tribulation theory says that these nations or kings will be the people who are saved in the tribulation period and they inhibit the earth during millennial period and will be reigned by Jesus and resurrected saints. They also will be the people who live on the new earth outside New Jerusalem in eternity. So these contradicting verses fit in the bible according to the pre-tribulation theory but I searched many post-tribulation supporting sites but I couldn’t find any explanation supporting these verses according to their post-tribulation theory.

      Oh Ok. Now I understood why you asked the questions. What I see is that the Pre-Tribbers will have to build this castle in the air to fool their followers. They need to build the castle because they started with a premise which does not have a scriptural base. Post Trib does not have to depend on this castle for their stand. What I understand is that Pre-trib theology also brings in another flaw. That flaw is that apart from Christians, the rest of Humans will be annihilated by Jesus Christ. Let me ask you a few questions and you will understand why we do not believe in that way.

      Question 1.
      Luke 2:1 KJV and also original text says that the entire World was taxed by Augustus Caesar those days. Do you think that your ancestors in India were also taxed? Why do you think the later translations changed the text to “Roman World” bypassing the original text which said “Entire World”?

      Question 2
      We see in the Bible(Rev 16:12, Dan 11:44) that the Kings of the East(possibly China, Japan and India) and The Kings of The North(Possibly Europe,Russia and North America) opposing and fighting the AntiChrist during the end times. Do you think they are fighting because they are Christians? Why do you think they will all be annihilated by Jesus when he comes? If you have a scripture to support that please present it here.

      Question 3
      After 1000 years of incarceration, Satan will go out and deceive billions of people when he is released from the bottomless pit(Rev 20:8). Do you think he is deceiving the Saved ones who were saved during the tribulation or the ones who were never saved in the first place? If you think he is deceiving the ones who are saved during the tribulation, you also need to give an explanation of why you think that the salvation of Jesus is so fragile and weak.

      Question 4
      Rev 20:4-5 says the following
      Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the “FIRST” RESURRECTION.

      Clearly, the “FIRST” RESURRECTION has the people who were killed in TRIBULATION. According to your premise, The people who are killed in the tribulation are that of a lower standard than the ones who are raptured before the tribulation(They will be ruled by the Pre-Trib raptured people). If the Tribulation Martyrs are part of the “FIRST” RESURRECTION, what should I call the supposed resurrection that Pre-Tribbers claim themselves to be part of?

      Moreover, towards the end of the 4th verse, we see this statement.
      And they came to life and “reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
      This part clearly says the people who died in Tribulation REIGNED WITH CHRIST. Is not that a paradox to what you mentioned?
      Quoting what you mentioned below.
      //Pre-tribulation theory says that these nations or kings will be the people who are saved in the tribulation period and they inhibit the earth during millennial period and will be reigned by Jesus and resurrected saints.

      Now tell me who are the Rulers and who are the Subjects in this case?

      I hope to receive an answer to the above questions and also I am waiting for that 1 Bible verse which says that there will be a Pre-Trib Rapture. If you have not found that one elusive verse, you should have abandoned the hypothesis there itself without making castles.

    • //I have read some of the interpretation of Jude 14, Zechariah 14: 5 and it says the holy ones are the angels who accompany Jesus on his second return. This correctly matches the post-tribulation theory not contradicting.

      Yes, both of these are post-trib explanations and I am fine with that too.

  28. Admin,
    Thanks for your replies to all my questions and concerns.
    When I was saved in my early 15’s I never knew about secret rapture of the church. I believed Jesus’s second coming will be a single event until when I read a book written by an independent Pentecostal preacher. After reading that book I started to believe the secret rapture and all other stuffs related to pre-tribulation theory. Also I began to go to TPM church which followed the same ideology. Many times I read about the verses related to Jesus second coming in the four gospels, I got confused because there it was written like a post-tribulation theology only. Till now I don’t know which one is correct and eager to learn the right truth.
    Even Angel TV preacher Sadhu Sunder Selvaraj was once a pre-tribulationist and now changed to post-tribulationist. He says he was preparing the believers for the great tribulation. I think this is an important bible topic which shouldn’t be ignored and the correct truth should reach each Christian.
    Do you know any other Bible theology websites which supports Post-tribulation with clear teaching? I have few sites like

    I have one more doubt, can you please clarify.

    Revelation 12:1-5

    “Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.”

    Above verses speak about a woman and male child. This is the only verse I think the pre-tribulationist confidently say that secret rapture concept is encoded by God and is revealed in these last days.
    Who is that Women and the male child? Does it reveal about the overcoming church which caught up to God i.e. secret rapture and left behind lukewarm Christians?

    There are many interpretation of these verses.

    1. Women is Israel and male child is Jesus Christ
    2. Women is Mary and male child is Jesus Christ
    3. Women is Church and male child is the overcoming believers who raptures on Jesus secret coming

    I can say that the 3rd interpretation is correct. What’s your thought on this?
    You know about these things since these verses and messages are taught in most of the TPM meetings.

    • //1. Women is Israel and male child is Jesus Christ
      2. Women is Mary and male child is Jesus Christ
      3. Women is Church and male child is the overcoming believers who raptures on Jesus secret coming

      I can say that the 3rd interpretation is correct. What’s your thought on this?
      You know about these things since these verses and messages are taught in most of the TPM meetings.

      Point No .3
      Well When you are indoctrinated in TPM, you tend to think likewise. This is quite not true. Let me ask you some questions which need to be answered before you follow the TPM Doctrine.

      1. You do not make a doctrine from an interpretation of symbols from Revelation. Therefore you need to have it based on clear passages. Where exactly in other places in the scripture do you see a Failed Church and a selection of a minuscule portion as an overcoming group? Such an interpretation is mocking at Jesus’ words in Matthew 16:18.

      2. We see that the dragon is following the woman to persecute her after waiting to devour the son. If the target is no more available, why is it persecuting the woman?

      3. The Church is always portrayed as a Woman. How come TPM changed the gender of the Overcomers to Male? Is the “so-called overcoming church” a Man? Do you think this Man is going to Marry Jesus who is also a Man? Is not that in violation to Rev 19:7 and many other passages in which the Church is a Full grown woman? The picture of TPM explanation seems to be flawed.

    • I have a question ( or rather a doubt which i got ) when i tried to correlate Rev:12 with TPMs rapture theory ( as in point 3 ) . May be those who support and believe interpretation 3 or TPMs theory can help me here ??

      According to TPMs rapture theory , those who are left behind in rapture will have to face severe persecution/tribulation from Antichrist, and the only way forward for such people is become martyrs with out accepting mark of Antichrist. Anti christ will severely persecute the left behind .. Also TPM sermons always emphasises that during this persecutions none will be able to stand and become martyrs because of the severity of the trials. ( the verse quoted here is Jeremiah 12:5 If you have run with footmen and they have tired you out, Then how can you compete with horses? )…..

      Now read Rev 12: 6 “Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. ”
      Rev 12:14 “But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.”
      These two verses says that there is a place prepared by God for the woman , where she will be nourished and preserved from the presence of serpent ”

      If the Woman is left behind church, Will God preserve them from antichrist and persecutions in a special place away from Antichrist ?? Is this not a direct contradiction with TPM teachings ?

      • Dear I Love Jesus,
        I don’t believe TPM’s doctrine of rapture and Jesus second coming. I think they have copied that from Darby’s Rapture theology and added few more doctrines on top of it.

  29. Admin,
    Below are my comments.
    1. I don’t see any other verses directly say that only overcoming believers are raptured. What I meant to say is the whole pre-tribulation rapture concept is based on this portion of script and other Jesus second coming related verses are framed or interpreted from the revelation of these verses.

    2. First target is the believers coming out of the woman (Church) and when they are raptured, Satan goes for their second targets rest of the offspring or child of the woman (church).

    I request you to read the contents from the below link.

    (Rev 12:5 NIV) She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne
    (Rev 12:17 NIV) Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

    3. I am not supporting TPM. Answer to your third question is on my above second answer itself. Revelation chapter is based on the allegory and it shouldn’t be taken literally. We have to see what is the exact meaning of Woman, man-child and offspring based on hermeneutics. i.e. interpret scripture based on another scripture.

    Meaning of the Woman is taken from Joseph dream in Genesis 37:9 and Micah 5:3
    Meaning of man-child is taken from Isaiah 66:7,8 and Revelation 2:26-28
    Meaning of rest of her offspring/child is not clear for me with the scriptures but we can take it as remaining left out

    If you are not satisfied with my above explanation, can you provide the correct interpretation?

    • Brother,
      Read through the site you sent. What I see is that they are also like TPM, trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Answering them for each point is out of scope at this point.

      The Below is my understanding and I do not claim to be someone who has unlocked some secret. However, I am more than willing to see where I am wrong in this. Please evaluate it critically.

      I feel this is not a snapshot picture to do a one-sided analysis. This is about a revelation of an important aspect of humanity seen through a Long Timeline(Probably thousands of years). Moreover, this is not single dimensional. I believe it is Multi-dimensional and reveals many things in the same vision which could overlap.
      Some of the points for thought are as follows.

      Characteristics of the Son
      1. The offspring is called “Man Child” which can also be interchanged as “Son”. Needless to say which “Son” I am referring here. It’s Jesus Christ Himself.
      2. The Dragon is waiting for the delivery of this “Son”. This also means that the pregnancy of the woman is quite obvious. The conception happened in Gen 3:15 by the prophecy by God Himself. The Delivery was promised to happen in the “Fullness of Time”(Gal 4:4) just as how pregnancy of any woman has a “Fullness of time”. Throughout the scriptures, we have so much proof of how the Dragon was trying to make this delivery impossible. One of the main things that come to my mind is the incident of Gen 6.
      3. In a timeline of many thousands of years, 33 years is to be seen as “Instantly“. The Child is taken up to the Throne of God (vs 5). Heb 1:13,Psalm 110:1
      4. This Son Rules with a Rod of Iron. Psalm 2:7,9,12 and Rev 19:15

      Characteristics of the Woman
      1. The Woman in Gen 3:15 is giving birth to this Son. Note the verse in Gen 3:15, the enmity is between the Woman and the Serpent(the old Dragon) just as we see in Rev 12. Through one Angle if you see it could be Mary. But as it is multi-dimensional and has a longer timeline, you could get a bigger and better picture if you think of this woman as the Church of God. Galatians 4:26, Heb 12:1,22-24
      2. The Church of God is established from the Beginning of Mankind and also more specifically its also called the Israel of God (Gal 6:16). It is a wrong notion to think that the Church of God started in 33 AD. It was in existence since very Long and even the Patriarchs are part of that Church along with Abel, Noah, Enoch, Moses, Job, David etc. Click here to know that Dispensationalism, as taught by modern clergy, is not what the Bible teaches.
      3. This Church is what will be persecuted towards the end of times by the Dragon. As this is a Spiritual Vision, we should be looking at a spiritual angle to it. The Purpose of the Flood spewed from the mouths of the Dragon is to make us discard the testimony of Jesus(vs 17). Even though physically many will be martyred, the Spiritual Entity i.e, the Church will be saved by the blood of the Lamb, The word of their Testimony and they loved not their lives till death(vs 11)

  30. Wonderful Admin. Thanks for clearing my doubts. I do started believing post-tribulational rapture and I will start reading the bible again without keeping pre-tribulational rapture in mind so that i will firmly believe the correct truth. Earlier we are all feed up with the pre-tribulational rapture and read & understand the bible in that way.

    • @Johnson
      Nice to know that. I too used to believe in Pre-Trib because that was what I was fed with. 8 years back, I was in a yahoo group when I was introduced to the post-trib doctrine. After a thorough study for a few years, I came to the conclusion that I was taught wrong. But the best thing was that It prompted me to study all of TPM doctrines unbiasedly. Very soon I was shocked to see that Doctrines after Doctrines of TPM were Doctored to fit their agenda. Later on, for more than 4 years God send me providences which proved that TPM is a dangerous pit which gobbles many innocents. As a result of that, came into existence. The Final Prompting before going full flow was the murder of Pastor Kanakaraj

  31. Venom removal series finally nailed the last nail the on coffin box .
    What an eye-opening discussion cum debate has been going on this blessed site between ADMN brother and Johnson brother for almost 7 days that finally culminated to 100 COMMENTS from the various authors. This healthy debate brought me to know fully well that what kind of false doctrines that I had been led by this CULT all these two and half decades.!
    Without properly checking the word, I was totally misled by this CULT fellowship all these years.I am not indulging in any blame game now. Retrospection revealed that I should have followed the path of the Biblical times ,like the BEREANS did.But alas, I was so much indoctrinated by this CULT that I used to buy buying and read the TPM’s doctrinal books wherever I used to attend the conventions.
    I in turn used to teach and preach to the young and old about this most important subject ‘rapture’ in the past that whatever I learned the false teachings!
    Let me quote the passage written in the CULT doctrinal book -THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST-( QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS)—- FIRST EDITION 1988 page no 2; ( as usual no author’s name will be written on these CULT doctrinal books- nor do they acknowledge from which book they copied — because they want dupe the readers )
    Here it is reference in QUESTION No 3,

    Thus the myth of pre-tribulation for the BRIDE’s church was clearly exposed and was found to totally wrong after the eye-opening debate that this site has been bringing out for the last 7 days or so.
    Now I will have to do the course correction . Thanks to the site that helped many to know the truths—–BETTER LATE ON EARTH THAN NEVER .
    Kudos to ADMN brother once again for bringing so many important TRUTHS
    of pre-trib and post trib into light.

  32. Further to the subject under discussion relevant to this episode,I wish to append a portion seen in my archieve connected to the Second Coming of JESUS for the express information of the regular readers of this site, and not only for them,this should also aid to those who regularly peep through these columns of this site.They can enrich themselves with this vital information being supplied by this site from time to time.
    Here is the excerpt that I selected from a portion of the book written by DAVID PAUL, the original CPM man.
    “The Doctrine of the Second Coming
    a. “I go an prepare a place for you, I will come again” (Jn. 14:3)
    b. “This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11).
    c. “For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with a trump of God” (1. Thes. 4:16)
    Now Apply these Three Essential Requirements On the TPM Doctrine on Zion of 1, 44,000!
    This unscriptural TPM teaching on Zion does not meet any one of the requirements to become a foundational teaching of the Christian church. My beloved TPM leaders, please ponder over this with prayer. The TPM church says this is their most important teaching and that God has not revealed this deep doctrine to any other Pentecostal church. I thank God that no other church in the world has fallen a prey to this absolutely unscriptural teaching. Now please follow me carefully.
    1. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the head of the Christian Church who has taught about all the other fundamental doctrines of the Church (as shown above) did not mention even one sentence about the CPM type style Zion with 1,44,000. If the teaching on Zion with 1, 44,000 is so very important as our TPM friends claim, how come we don’t read even one verse about it (TPM Zion) in all the four Gospels?
    2. Secondly, if the doctrine on Zion with 1,44,000 is of such importance why is it we don’t read anything at all about it even once in the Acts of the Apostles which contains the history of the early Christian Church.
    3. Thirdly, great Apostles like Peter, John and Paul have written beautifully and clearly about all the foundational teachings of the Church in their Epistles but have not mentioned even once about the Zion with 1,44,000.
    Do you think they might have forgotten to write about this deep doctrine which TPM claims in reserved for saints like them with deeper consecration. The Apostles in all their Epistles did not care to write about this Zion with 1, 44,000 even once? Should you spend all your life time for this erroneous teaching on Zion which the Apostles never bothered to mention even once in all their Epistles? Should you waste all your life-time for this TPM teaching on Zion about which we don’t read anything at all in the book of Acts which contains the history of the 1st century church?
    Finally, should you spend all your life-time for this teaching of Zion with 1, 44,000 about which our Lord, the head of the Church, did not care to speak even once?
    My dear TPM parents, I appeal to you in the name of the Lord to prayerfully consider whether it is proper on your part to send your young children to the TPM ministry the doctrine of which is a bundle of contradictions.
    My dear TPM workers, should you spend your whole life time for this doctrine of your Zion which came out of the late pastor Alwin’s (Whom you yourselves got excommunicated) fertile imagination and continue to mislead young lives with this man made teaching? —UNQUOTE
    So whoever read this episode filled with these comments,tomorrow they should never say that they ever heard or read this most important information.So lets arm ourselves with this vital information and never forget to thank the owner of this site —ADMN Brother who provided this valuable space for all of us .

    • This is the theology of Darby and Scoffield. All these points are basically presuppositions because of the lack of scriptures to support their position. They had to add a third coming. Though these points are already dealt with by many post-trib sites, I would (God willing) be putting in a series of articles to show how they have twisted the second coming, refuting these points.



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