It is taught in TPM that only TPM workers and believers are led by Spirit of God and all other Pentecostals are deceived by some other spirit. In this article, we will challenge TPM believers and saints to check whether they themselves are led by Spirit of God or not (especially Centre Pastors)? As I was browsing through youtube, I found the testimony of a sister in Telugu, about her visit (in trance) to heaven and hell. A little bit of search on the internet revealed that this was not the only occasion when a believer from TPM underwent such an experience. There are many such testimonies available on the internet (I am talking about people from TPM and not about people from other churches). You can find few links at the end of the article. For our consideration, we will consider testimonies of two TPM workers.
The Nagpur Center Pastor’s favorite Past time
It has been heard that Pastor Shyam Sunder is encouraging such testimonies of heaven and hell. Young worker brothers/sisters and new believers are deluded to believe in such false visions. Being deluded, they, in turn, play part in spreading these false visions. Not only Pastor Shyam Sunder but late Chief Pastor T. U. Thomas had also advocated such false visions of hell and heaven. In his message on heaven and hell Pastor T. U. Thomas supported Mary Baxter and other heaven/hell travelers. Pastor T.U. Thomas had a great influence all over the TPM world. Pastor Shyam is also widely known in TPM. He has a great influence in Vijayawada, Andhra Pradesh, Punjab, Delhi, Nagpur, Baroda. If Chief Pastors and Centre Pastors encourage and spread such false visions, then what about other TPM workers and believers, who take their word as a word from God?
What does the scripture say?
We will give scriptural references to prove that these visions cannot be from God and Holy Spirit. This will indicate that TPM Chief Pastors and Centre Pastors are not always led by Spirit of God.
- Did God change his decision: In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man makes a request to Abraham. He suggests that somebody from “Otherworld” must be sent to earth to give witness about the reality of hell and the torment one has to face there (Luke 16:27-28, 30). To this suggestion of rich man, Abraham responds negatively. Abraham says, though one rose from dead yet people on earth will not be repent. If they obey not Moses and prophets (verse 31) then they will not listen to any testimony from hell visitor. Therefore it is crystal clear that God is not interested in taking people to hell and then asking them to give witness to people on earth about the reality of hell. Yet these heaven-hell visitors claim that God asked them to go on earth and be a witness!
- Picnic place for demons? These visions reveal, that demons are kings and owners of hell! The brother who gave testimony said, “demons were putting rods in eyes of people” and the sister who went for a trip to hell said, “demons were frying people in hell, like we fry papadams.” However, Bible reveals that a hell is a place for punishment of devil and his angels (Matt 25:41) and it is not a place of picnic and fun for them, where they can fry people like pappadam. These trance visions are a mockery of God’s place of punishment as if demons have no effect of flames of hell on them!
- Great Gulf between Heaven and hell: These heaven and hell travelers tell us that they went first to hell and then to heaven or vice versa. Now look at what bible says “Luke 16:26 …. between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”
- Necromancy: These visitors to heaven and hell tell that they had a chat with the People whom they know who have died. This is necromancy and it is prohibited in Bible and abhorred by God (Deuteronomy 18: 11,12).
- Parallelism outside Christianity. You won’t find the extra-biblical detailed narration of hell anywhere in the bible. Believers are asked by the apostle to refrain from these things (Col 2:18, I Corin 4:6). However these details are available in pagan sources like list of punishment in hell in Garuda Purana (Hindu literature – like frying in oil, torments by snakes, torment by scorpions, being beaten with stripes…), in Mahavir’s vision of hell (Jain literature), in visions induced by Astral Projections, and in visions seen by Roman Catholicism (receiving apparition of Mary, lady Fatima etc).
- Supporting False Gospel of salvation by works: Finally, these false visions of heaven and hell seem to spread TPM (man-made) rules, as God’s standard of judgment (as if God is going to judge the world, using these man-made rules)! These people tell things like – he was burned in hell, or tormented by serpents and scorpions because she wore ornaments, or acid was put on her face because she used to make up, or angels put rod in eyes of men who committed adultery with eyes, or angels tormented people who danced to filmy songs and so on. These man-made rules are in stark opposition to the true gospel which Jesus and Apostles preached. Apostle Paul questioned the believers in the church at Colosse, “why are you subject to rules and ordinances like touch not this or handle not that ….which rules although appear as wise words but are of no use to keep man holy (Col 2:20-23 paraphrased).”
Because these travelers of heaven and hell are still alive, and we don’t want to humiliate them by taking their name in public. Therefore we have refrained ourselves from naming brother and sister who went through this vision. We feel pity for the deception in which they fell. Our intention is to expose what is heretical and dangerous and at the same time we are taking precaution as to not humiliate anyone. We have named Pastor Shyam Sunder’s name not to humiliate him, but because we want TPM devotees to make this news reach his ears and thereby put a hold to his superstitious spirit. We pray that TPM believers and ministers may realize the fatal mistake of blindly believing any spirit, prophecy, dream or vision and be established in true gospel.
A year back, there was a testimony of a sister who claimed to have gone into a trance and went and came back with lots of weird doctrines like Watching TV is sin and many such legalistic things. The whole intention was to prove the supposed doctrines and dictates of TPM is divine. TPM was promoting it by recording CDs and distributing all over the place. One of my TPM friend send me a copy as well. But what happened to that sister in Tamil Nadu? Do you know? She was filled with Demonic Spirits. In reality, it was the demon speaking through her. The TPM Ministers could not even know the spirit inside her and promoted that like hot cakes. We heard from a source that the possessed lady died . We all hope that it was a lesson for us not to play around things like that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDrXp9sN7xo (Could not confirm whether it is from TPM/CPM)
I am glad you brought that issue..
, Almost all prophecies, dreams are man made, their own babble , very shallow , repeating some bible verses, very standard statments like ( I am coming soon, I will do the battle for you, I call you for high , /Zion etc..). the same people you, when you meet after service, you dont see any connection between their spiritual status/talk what they prophesied just minutes before .why I can tell confidently is .. I too have gift of prophecy or hear his voice/revelation now and then….. First of all all my experiences I got are.., when I am at uttermost reverence quite spirit in HIS presence…. Once GOd revealed, imparted in your spirit , you linger over for a while.. THere must be some change others could feel. I have very good friend of mine walk closely with God. when she talks to me , she immediately asks, there is something God revealed to you .. Is int? … If there is word/revelation coming… is from GOD, or not.. your Spirit conform to that I also hate they give such a built up before they prophecy.. I am sorry.. so disgusting..
A very meaningful comment, sister- Words cannot explain… thousands get decieved and the deception becomes a new normal.
//Almost all prophecies…?? repeating some bible verses, very standard statments like ( I am coming soon, I will do the battle for you, I call you for high , /Zion etc..). //
Ha..Ha.. These happen in every faith home I guess so! It doesn’t much matter whether someone is from TPM or any other church. One must be utterly grounded it Gospel of salvation by faith alone, grace alone and scriptures alone. Instead of running for revelations from God, one must labour to seek sound understanding of word of God. Only sound Christ Centred knowledge of Bible can help us stay away from emotional experience of charismatic experiences.
Was the sister Sarojini from tamilnadu died? Truly ?
In 1917, there was a famous incident in Portugal. “Mary” supposedly appeared to 3 small children with visions. Here’s the account of what the children saw in one of those visions.
“Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire, which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls, in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in this conflagration in clouds of smoke, lifted by flames coming out of their bodies. They rose and fell on all sides, like sparks in roaring fires, without weight or direction, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair that terrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. This vision lasted but a moment, thanks to our good Mother from Heaven who had warned us beforehand, and promised to take us to Heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of horror and fear. Then we raised our eyes to Our Lady, who said with kindness and sadness: ‘You have seen Hell, where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immacidate Heart. If people do what I am going to tell you, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.’ ”
We must never forget that Satan is a deceiver. He always takes a lot of truth and adds a little of his lies. In the above vision, it all seems so noble and harmless that the one showing the vision to these children wants them to “stop sinning” and “live a holy life”. But we see the intention is to deceive a Catholic to continue keeping their focus on Mary and away from God. A staunch Roman Catholic will seldom detect the deception in the dream. Since we aren’t clouded by devotion to Mary we can easily say that vision is not from God.
In the same way, Satan will not show the same dream with Mary in it to a TPM believer. Instead he uses a TPM believers blind devotion to their “saints” to reinforce that belief and keep the focus away from God and towards more devotion to TPM ministers and the works based gospel. Which is why being rooted in Word of God as our ultimate authority is so important.
Anecdotal, it might seem, TPM workers, many of them get apparitions of their late superiors/ pastors/ mothers as well.
Well said, Richard!- You summed it up- I have not much more to add…
It’s not Satan or any such being that is having people these delusions …it’s just the play of mind …you obsess too much about something you tend to get “dreams ” about the same , whether it be mathematics problems when you study too much for an exam , or your lover when you think you think too much about that person , or Mary for devout Catholics or tpm saints for devout tpm believers ..it’s all human psychology …when person X as a Christian thinks what others do is not in line with his/her view of what “actual/real Christianity ” should be then it’s all Satan…I find that logic weird
Many of such dreams are sure just down to the human brain. I don’t deny that. But scripture records visions seen by the prophets of OT and they are surely from God. Peter too saw a vision from God. Paul says Satan can transform himself into an angel of light to preach a different gospel. I’m not dogmatically saying the “miracle of Fatima” is of a satanic source, just that it seems that way.
//But scripture records visions seen by the prophets of OT and they are surely from God. Peter too saw a vision from God.Paul says Satan can transform himself into an angel of light to preach a different gospel.\\
How do I (or you or anyone for that matter) know Paul or Peter or any prophet for that matter was just bluffing?
//when person X as a Christian thinks what others do is not in line with his/her view of what “actual/real Christianity ” should be then it’s all Satan…I find that logic weird//
I’m sorry, but that’s an mis-characterization of my POV. It isn’t what I view “actual/real Christianity”, it is what scripture says is “actual/real Christianity”. So if you think my understanding of scripture is wrong when I used scripture to say the “miracle of Fatima” is satanic, I would love it if you show me scriptural evidence to prove the message in those visions are consistent with scripture. I come from a presupposition that God has spoken in history. What God spoke can be found in the pages of scripture which is inerrant. So, if I hear a teaching that is contrary to what is revealed in scripture (in this case, “To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immacidate Heart. If people do what I am going to tell you, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.”), I can say with utmost surety that such a teaching is anti-biblical.
Truth isn’t subjective. Truth is a person and His name is Jesus. I try to have the same view of scripture that Jesus had. He viewed it as inerrant and so do I.
I didn’t mean to question your POV specifically, I was just having a comment in general about how these kind of religious debates operate.
//It isn’t what I view “actual/real Christianity”, it is what scripture says is “actual/real Christianity”.So if you think my understanding of scripture is wrong when I used scripture to say the “miracle of Fatima” is satanic, I would love it if you show me scriptural evidence to prove the message in those visions are consistent with scripture. \\
I am of the view that scripture can be interpreted in any way people like(just look at the number of Christian denominations out there).I am not saying your understanding of scripture is wrong, all I am saying is most of our beliefs are based on your ‘presuppositions’ that “what God spoke can be found in the pages of scripture which is inerrant”. I don’t want to involve myself in the debate about whether is Bible is true or not..but from experience and from studying a bit of history I’ve come to the conclusion that people have been interpreting stuffs in that book and holding them as truth until someone else would have a ‘better interpretation’ of it and the chain goes on….so these tpm guys think theirs is the better theology based on their interpretation of the bible and some people who went there (including myself) think it’s all crap and try to defend our views…our next generation will think our views to be crap and will try to defend their claims for that and the cycle continues…
//It isn’t what I view “actual/real Christianity”, it is what scripture says is “actual/real Christianity”.
@ exbrainwashed & @ Richard.
As definitions get narrower, so do points of view. I see that this is a personal debate between you both and I was hesitant to join in. Just in case, you feel the debate is an open to all kind, I am happy to jump in.
@ Denzel I have no issues if you jump in..but the original comment was by Richard so its upto him lol..
Bro Richard might answer you. I am sorry to interrupt your discussion with him.
Seems that you have lost your faith in God and are in direction of becoming atheist. I suggest you listen to Ravi Zacharias, and other apologists before denouncing your faith. You can read “is God a moral monster by Paul Copenhagen” or Dawkins delusion if you are following these atheist leaders. Timothy Keller’s “Reason for God” is also considered as masterpiece.
One thing I would like to suggest, is that looking at human beings as saints will often get you in trouble as it seems from what you have written elsewhere. There is no church as perfect Church. There were problems, with church at Corinthians, Galatians, 7 churches of Asia of Revelation etc… So even in days of apostles there were people who brought in heretical teachings and wild behaviour. Tpm’s case is different (some extreme heretical teachings). Looking at them an concluding that their is no God is not a wise decision.
I hope that you will go through the material suggested, before starting atheism.
@ Nath I appreciate your concern..but unlike what you think I’ve already been down the path of atheism. In an attempt to keep my sanity intact, I’ve binge watched almost all the Ravi Zachariahs videos in YouTube and have even read one of his books (travelling from east to west or something like that) ..I can even quote him because I kinda know all of his answers to the so called tough questions …in the beginning it made sense to me and for a while I considered myself “restored ” but as I studied further I now realize Ravi doesn’t fully answer questions …he simply plays around with words and kinda deflects the answers to something else …I know why he does that coz the only other option would be to be true and say “I don’t know..alll my stuffs are purely based on my “faith””…I like Timothy Keller and I enjoy listening to him even today …I’ve listened to hitchens, Dawkins and especially my favorite Sam Harris and these guys are more honest than any Christian apologist I’ve ever come across …i don’t consider myself an atheist coz that worldview is in itself is difficult for me to defend against some of the arguments I had against religion … I consider myself a highly skeptical Christian …i kinda have a laugh when I see phrases like “stop looking through the lens of tpm” …by people who are seeing stuffs through the lens of what they believe Christianity should be or shouldn’t be …i am thankful for Tpm in one way coz rebellion against its nonsense helped me go so further out into freedom ..a freedom of thought , a freedom to do whatever I want as long as it doesn’t hurt my fellow living beings, …a freedom to speak my mind without judging if it’s chrisitian or not ..freedom to interact with people most Christians deem as “lost ” ..like the freedom mentioned in Galatians 5 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 12…
I am not an apologist to answer you attacks on scriptures. How can you call yourself Christian if you are skeptical about it. If you would allow me to ask, can you describe your journey to atheism in detail. You seem to me burnt by hypocrisy and fanaticism of religiosity. May be you are angry with God for not having helped you when you expected him. It seems as if you are unsatisfied by reasons given by defenders of faith about why God needed to die, why is their pain in the world, why doesnt God once for all destroy devil if he is the root cause of nuisance and so on. Most probably you have found a wide gap in what religious gurus preach and what they do, and then Sam Harris and likes of him helped you to get in deeper depths of depression by making scriptures appear in contrast to your conscience. Had you not been in Tpm, the case would have hardly differed. You seem to find God of Bible morally unmoral to the definition of morality that you seem to hold in your mind. I have made all sort of guesses about you and your thinking. Hope some hit the bulls eye.
//I am not an apologist to answer you attacks on scriptures//
I don’t remember ‘ attacking’ the scriptures. If any of my earlier comments gave such an impression, I would like to reiterated that it wasn’t my intention.
// How can you call yourself Christian if you are skeptical about it.//
Hope this article answers that question for you. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christandpopculture/2013/04/skepticism-for-christianity-why-doubt-is-our-best-friend/
//if you would allow me to ask, can you describe your journey to atheism in detail.//
I am sorry i have to respectfully decline for the sake of privacy
//You seem to me burnt by hypocrisy and fanaticism of religiosity.
” seem to had have been burnt..” would be a more accurate description..
//May be you are angry with God for not having helped you when you expected him
Bingo, that was a bull’s eye…lol
// it seems as if you are unsatisfied by reasons given by defenders of faith about why God needed to die, why is their pain in the world, why doesnt God once for all destroy devil if he is the root cause of nuisance and so on.
//Most probably you have found a wide gap in what religious gurus preach and what they do, and then Sam Harris and likes of him helped you to get in deeper depths of depression by making scriptures appear in contrast to your conscience
Agree with the gap part…but i didn’t get what you were trying to say by “to get in deeper depths of depression”….
“Scripture appear in contrast to your conscience..”…No…I don’t know what conscience has to play in these kinds of things…..all that was involved mainly are common sense and logic…
//Had you not been in Tpm, the case would have hardly differed. //
Maybe or may not be…I am not that strong in hypotheticals…but what TPM did was to inject in me theology in a very legalistic and brainwashing way that when I was faced with the “reality” of critical thinking, common sense and things like that, I found myself taking a radical step away from faith..its more like the potential energy-kinetic energy concept..the more you pull back the bow, the faster the arrow will go….TPM i believe pulled me back a lot and therefore my “falling away” was faster/strong….my reasoning might not be entirely accurate but that’s how I see it…
// You seem to find God of Bible morally unmoral to the definition of morality that you seem to hold in your mind.
Correct…in many cases….example is..how was it moral for God to order the killing of babies..check out ‘Euthyphro dilemma’ in detail if you are interested
//I have made all sort of guesses about you and your thinking. Hope some hit the bulls eye.//
You did a good work at that..kudos..
@ bro Ex_brainwashed
I never said you attacked scriptures in written form anywhere here, but as you accepted about your question on morality of God in OT, – doesn’t make sense whether you publicly express it or not. It is there in your mind and you gave evidence about it by accepting your concerns about Old testament God. I just wanted to avoid foolish questions about existence of God and so on. I intended to say by that statement, that I am open to moralistic questions about OT God & reason for pain and suffering, however not willing to engage in stupid debates about science and God.
Doesn’t much matter if you give the details or not,my intention was to find the root cause of it, rather than personal detail. However since you have accepted that root cause is anger on God, I have got my information. Reminds me of Ravi’s remark that almost all atheism originates from anger at God.
Since all other guesses did manage to hit on bulls eye, it makes you no different than any other person on the same route.
Regarding your answer for reason for pain in the world, (considering God as good), and morality of Old testament God, i would love to give my opinions as distinct from any that you have ever heard, but this space is not suitable.
I say so because just one remark from me wont be sufficient to convince you, you might in response throw other questions and that would make the discussion hectic at this place. It is better to go one on one in such discussions. One on one email discussion would be the best Idea.
Your anger on God – which is root of your new found belief system, stems from false idea about God. All your allegations about morality of OT God, and seeking a remedy to find pain and suffering in the world, has solution in proper knowledge of God and Christianity and gospel. Solution to your questions is contained in two stories of Bible. If you would have understood those stories as it ought to have been understood, then you wouldn’t have embarked upon the journey you’ve started. Neither would have Sam Harris and Dawkins spewed out what they did.
I am happy that you’ve found peace and closure in your understanding of the true nature of God.
//May be you are angry with God for not having helped you when you expected him
Bingo, that was a bull’s eye…lol
When I said that I wasn’t being dead serious…hence the ‘lol’. What I intended to say that yea as a naive Christian you tend to get disappointed/angry/frustrated that you pray for something and don’t get what you wanted. For eg. I prayed before an exam to give me good grades and when I didn’t get the grades I expected, I would get ‘angry’ at God….but soon I realized my mistake and stopped praying and started ‘working’…coz my non Christian friends who apparently are praying to the wrong God were getting good grades so applying common sense I understood that the fault was not in praying or not praying but was in how much I understood the course material and presented it in the exam and my brain capacity and stuffs like that…..
I would get ‘angry’ when I had sickness and God wasn’t healing me..but then that anger was no more when I realized medicines can do a better job than prayers…
I hope you got the point..
As for me, I am not an angry person in general, it’s very difficult to get me to get angry ( the person has to be so skilled in what he does or doesn’t for that to happen) . So if by my “Anger on God” you mean ‘a strong emotion of displeasure or
hostility’, I would have to correct you because I don’t have such a strong emotion…If Ravi mentioned such a comment, I lament his ignorance…I don’t consider myself an atheist and I am not embarking on a so called atheistic journey or whatever…Ive been on a similar “journey” before and I have no interest in having a similar journey again…not only is it boring but also useless …..I don’t know of any ‘new found belief system’ that I have neither do I think I have any ‘false idea about God’. I have an idea of God and it maybe false or true and I don’t believe anyone who says he/she has the true idea of God because that would mean he/she has fully ‘figured out God’ which would make him/her on par with God….If solution to my questions is in two stories of Bible, I would like to know what they are….but what I don’t really get are statements like “as it ought to have been understood, then….” I know for a fact that my journey had been sincere so far and if God failed to communicate His message in a way I ought to have understood, whose is the problem..? Another problem with that statement is complacency….I don’t believe any two stories can fully explain the mysteries of Godliness to a mortal and if it had been that easy, it eliminates the mystery element totally….
Yea, as you mentioned, this topic is too broad/complicated and can sometimes feel as “stupid”/waste of time. That’s why I don’t want to have an email conversation or any lengthy debate about such here in this blog. This blog is a platform to expose the apparently wrong teachings of TPM and the admin and his team is doing a great job at that…so let me not pull the conversations too much out of scope….all i wanted to convey was that when I look back, the way I was indoctrinated by TPM filtered Christianity has played, I believe, a major role in me going the path I chose..I don’t know if that is a good thing or not yet…i’ll leave that to the sovereignty of God…
PS. Nath. although it’s a comment directed at your reply, I don’t mean to make it personal in any way…I hope you take that in the right ‘spirit’..
You might also want to listen in to the audio series on the ‘Silence of God’ by brother Teju.
Although, I was not attending TPM, listening to the sermons gave me much comfort.
By the way, there is no philosophy or theocratic views, it suggests, but the main theme is, that, God is love, his silence means there is a loud communication, for a greater good.
I wish, in my heart, that your soul be filled with goodness & your spirit lifted up with heavenly grace.
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
They replied, “We both had dreams last night, but there is no one here to tell us what they mean.” “Interpreting dreams is God’s business,” Joseph replied. “Tell me what you saw.” – Genesis 40:8
As Sigmund Freud, the Viennese doctor, listened to his patients, he became increasingly interested in the phenomena of dreams. Eventually, he wrote his book The Interpretation of Dreams. Freud’s findings were both fascinating and controversial. To this day, he has both admirers and detractors.
Joseph, too, was involved with people who recounted their dreams to him. While he never wrote a book about it (so far as we know), he did make a strong statement about the interpretation of dreams. “Interpreting dreams is God’s business,” he told two of his fellow prisoners. “Tell me what you saw” (Gen 40:8). Freud would certainly have said, “Tell me what you saw,” but he would have scoffed at any suggestion that God should be involved in the inner workings of a man’s life.
The difference of outlook between a Freud and a Joseph could not be more basic or far-reaching. It highlights the age-old question about whether or not God is actively involved in people’s lives, about whether or not God is in business in the world today. Freud was an atheist, so he did not bother his mind with the question of God’s involvement in the world. He had already decided that, since God does not exist, there could be no thought of his involvement. But many men who are not at all atheistic in their outlook doubt whether God communicates with men today. They do not question his existence, but they are dubious about his involvement—and, accordingly, about his relevance.
When Potiphar’s wife tried to seduce Joseph, his response was “It would be a great sin against God” (39:9). When he was confronted with interpreting Pharaoh’s dreams, he said, “It is beyond my power to do this . . . but God will tell you” (41:16). Later, looking back over his life, Joseph said, “God has made me forget all my troubles,” and, “God has made me fruitful in this land of my suffering” (41:51-52). And when he finally confronted his brothers and talked about their treatment of him, he told them, “It was God who sent me here, not you!” (45:8). Joseph knew that his life was God’s business.
The loving, faithful God is actively involved in a man’s daily affairs. But the man who lives his life without consciously knowing this must endeavor to find alternative ways of making peace with life’s eventualities. Blind fate and dumb luck come to mind as possible salves for the mind. But it is better by far to trust the Lord of the universe, who sets up shop in men’s lives on a daily basis. And there he works his wonders.
@ex_b, I totally get where you’re coming from. I have people close to me who are in a similar boat, thanks to tpm. I sincerely believe if it wasn’t for TPM and their demonizing believers who don’t speak in tongues as though they are useless second class citizens, things would have been different. There is a very real danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water after having lived one’s whole life in a cult like TPM. If you have already listened to Christian apologists like WLC and Ravi, there is very little I can add to persuade you to think things differently. If you are looking for answers regarding the reliability of scripture, I would direct you to lectures by Dr. Peter J. Williams.
I love listening to Sam Harris. He has a brilliant mind, no doubt. You should listen to the two recent podcasts he did with Jordan Peterson. They are brilliant. Also, if you haven’t watched it already but you should listen to every debate by WLC.
Every worldview requires faith. An atheistic much more than a religious one. You might brush away answers from Ravi and WLC as not fully answering questions. You are right and they admit it. So many of the questions raised to Ravi, you don’t get a complete answer and he doesn’t pretend that it is complete anyway.
Much of Harris'(and the likes of him) objection to the argument for God stems in the problem of evil in this world. But I find his foundations weak. How can he call anything evil objectively when he had no objective standard? It’s all relative, isn’t it? We’re all nothing but atoms who are behaving the way we do because the atoms are guided by natural laws and nothing else. There is absolutely no accountability in a materialistic worldview. Murderers murder because the atoms that make him are just following natural law.
Needless to say I find the materialistic worldview weak. It takes a lot more faith in holding to such a worldview than a Christian one.
//Much of Harris'(and the likes of him) objection to the argument for God stems in the problem of evil in this world. But I find his foundations weak. How can he call anything evil objectively when he had no objective standard? It’s all relative, isn’t it? We’re all nothing but atoms who are behaving the way we do because the atoms are guided by natural laws and nothing else. There is absolutely no accountability in a materialistic worldview. Murderers murder because the atoms that make him are just following natural law.
Needless to say I find the materialistic worldview weak. It takes a lot more faith in holding to such a worldview than a Christian one.//
Agreed, that’s one point which keeps me from fully embracing the atheistic worldview …but that being the case, it pulls all the blame for evil onto God…I don’t even know if many of you will even understand this contention, but if you fully stand on a Christian worldview and try to think about how evil originated, there is no rational conclusion than to conclude God created evil.
Some of the arguments I hear against these are
1. No, evil is the absence of good(or God)
How come God is absent if he is omnipresent?
2. No,Satan is the origin of evil. It was his pride that started evil.
If Satan was a created being, doesn’t it mean that he was created with a capability to have pride in him? Or in other words, God created evil.
3. Freewill argument.
One of the most silly argument which believers think answers that question. ‘God didn’t want robots because pure love cannot come out of a system where you don’t have the choice to not love….hence evil….” Even then the fact remains that in order to have a “choice”, first the 2 choices should exist, or in other words good and evil should exist. And who else other than the creator did create those two choices??
That’s the dilemma my mind suffers….yes the arguments for pure atheism doesn’t hold ground…but so does the arguments for basic Christian theology…
1. Why was that tree even required to be in that garden?
If I am a parent and I have two babies who know nothing about what evil is ( Adam and Eve had no ‘knowledge of good and evil ‘ until they apparently ate that fruit)…and in my house there is let’s say an explosive which can destroy the world ( let’s say i am a scientist who does some research and hence the need for that), will I in my right mind leave those two babies alone in that home without some kind of adult watch ??( God should have put the angel with the turning sword BEFORE the FALL happened if He was really concerned about humans)
2. The omnipotent God who created the universe can’t forgive two naive human beings who ate a fruit?
Inorder to forgive He had to wait some 2000 years, where he did trial and error techniques (first conscience, then the judges, the Law) which all failed until He himself came down and performed a human sacrifice on himself..so that those who believe in that sacrifice gets forgiveness of a sin which apparently was passed onto their genes from their great grandparents’ eating a fruit….I find that story incredible…
Also the ultimate aim of God is for everyone to be in heaven….where there is no sin, Satan and stuffs like that….soi can I safely guess there is no freewill in that heaven….everyone is going to be just robots??? If that’s the case, why couldn’t God implement such a system right from the beginning??
I don’t want to go in foolish argument mode, therefore neglecting your responses directed at me, and jumping right in between you and Richard. Forgive me for indecency. I like to jump in to something intelligent and jump out of foolish argument mode. Now coming straight to the point.
Have you read this verse ” Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?”
It means what it means! Did you get that. God is thumping his feet and saying yes I am the reason for all this.. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. But how dare you try to bring me under the same law into which you are supposed to stay in. Is clay going to judge the wisdom of God ?? Glad, you came to this realization. Now realize one more thing, that potter has the right to do with the clay whatever he WILLS.
Yes the tree of apple and the sacrifice of cross are the two stories that yield to your dilemma. Agreed that it seems unconvincing to say God didnt want to make robots…blah blah..What is more rational for me is that “God indeed wanted to make robots.. and therefore he created that tree to let the people realize the hell of freedom. The freedom which so much take pride in ..(remembering your quoting Gal 5:1 in wrong context..).. is the reason for all the hell in the world that you hate and foolishly latch on it, and boast it – not realizing that in order to attempt to make the world a better place to live in your asking people to maintain the rebellion of Adam. Surrendering to cross to be reconciled to God, to loose your freedom is the only way sir. Once more you will become the living soul. In this case the apple in your head will loose its throne to the ancient of days. Call it robot if you will. I call it christ is the head of members of body.
I hope you get the answer ” ex_brainwashed.” The reason i think as to why he didn’t implement that system is because he wanted for you people to experientially realize the hell of freedom.
The irony is some years back when I went to a center pastor with some of the arguments mentioned in this site about the teachings of Tpm being not in line with the scriptures he said the same ” I don’t want to have foolish arguments ” …
Yes I know that verse and that’s a verse many use to suppress questioning …a kinda fear mongering
The tone of your voice when you paraphrased God sounds exactly like the tone Tpm or any controlling sects use on their people …instead of all that fear mongering I like to hold onto God as being a loving Father who answers His children’s questions however hard that might be ..like He answered Thomas’ heavy skepticism ….I don’t blame you for still having that fiery view of God, it’s not easy to shed it off after attending a church like this …
As expected you didn’t understand the core of my argument about the whole robot stuff..but that’s ok …try listening to https://youtu.be/5Ir6pKEV0RQ
i didn’t get any answer except a somewhat emotional response …yes to people who have been in prison (of Tpm or any other such place ) freedom sounds like hell …if you have watched the movie the shawshank redemption you might remember the old guy Brooks …it’s called institutionalization….
Here, I think you will enjoy this debate.
Thank you.i had listened to this debate a long back ago…sam harris wasn’t at his best in it..He was still a rookie against an experienced ‘foe’…haha..there are many such beautiful debates in youtube…..it makes life richer…
Does my tone appear harsh, when i asked “How can you call yourself Christian and be still skeptic ?”
If so, then i feel sorry for it.
I should have said this way,
“Glad to know that you still consider your self Christian. Glad to know that there remains still a seed or ray of hope in you. Glad to know that you don’t not align your worldview in full agreement to atheist worldview. Glad to know you still find pleasure in listening to Timothy Keller. You seem better than TPM die hards who would never listen him considering lower than TPM deeper truths or false preacher.
I was hearing some testimonies about new servants been taken to tpm ministry. They claim God has given them call for highest place of Zion. Imagine how would they feel if they come to know the reality of Tpm church. There is hundred percent chance of such people loosing there sanity.. Such a wound might never heal.. The reason is false aspirations from God due to false dreams and visions… I hope you can imagine it… You might consider these false dreams and visions as activity of brain ..but that’s your way of dealing the question about the wound you received.. But we think fanaticism to Tpm and spirits controlling them is responsible..
( This might make you ask question about silence of God in watching it happen.. And i have my own way to deal with it..)
Does my tone appear harsh, when i asked “How can you call yourself Christian and be still skeptic ?”
If so, then i feel sorry for it.
I should have said this way,
//“Glad to know that you still consider your self Christian. Glad to know that there remains still a seed or ray of hope in you. Glad to know that you don’t not align your worldview in full agreement to atheist worldview. Glad to know you still find pleasure in listening to Timothy Keller. You seem better than TPM die hards who would never listen him considering lower than TPM deeper truths or false preacher.//
For most of the believers in Tpm or any other religious denomination for that matter, they don’t have many reasons to think beyond what they are being taught from a system into which they are born into….Since I myself had such strong “Confirmation Bias” when I was in TPM and even now as an Ex Tpm , I try my best to be kind and gracious to those simple believers in Tpm or any such denomination who strongly hold onto their beliefs, however flawed that is…
I consider myself lucky mainly because of my secular school system which instilled in me a ‘spirit’ to question everything. I owe my school teachers a lot..I don’t consider myself as someone who figured it all out. I try to learn everyday and move on…That keeps me sane and happy…
//I was hearing some testimonies about new servants been taken to tpm ministry. They claim God has given them call for highest place of Zion. Imagine how would they feel if they come to know the reality of Tpm church. There is hundred percent chance of such people loosing there sanity.. Such a wound might never heal.. The reason is false aspirations from God due to false dreams and visions… I hope you can imagine it… You might consider these false dreams and visions as activity of brain ..but that’s your way of dealing the question about the wound you received.. But we think fanaticism to Tpm and spirits controlling them is responsible..
( This might make you ask question about silence of God in watching it happen.. And i have my own way to deal with it..)//
I used to think along the same lines…but I like to believe that the human spirit is highly resilient…Most such new servants won’t even come across such contentions against Tpm doctrines..they will just flow with the tide they are in and have a very happy life….and when they die they die very happy, full of passion for what they believed in ….that I feel is good….yea there might be a few among them who would have rebellious thoughts and the ensuing cognitive dissonance might wreak havoc in them…but hopefully their spirits survive and they come out with minimal mental injuries…wounds might take time to heal but in the end it does heal and the itching you get when its almost there feels so good..lol…
I don’t that deny the possibility that fanaticism to Tpm is the cause for such dreams in the first place….but as a student of science I don’t understand where else those thoughts originate than in the brain?? Heart?? (Alll i know is it just pumps blood and do nothing else..) This Indian scientist might explain it better
A beautiful documentary …..
About silence of God..lol..He is supposed to be silent so that the freewill of human beings are given full exercise…Although in the scriptures there are many instances where He violates that by intervening, e.g. in the case of hardening Pharoah’s heart, etc..but that’s another story…
“It is taught in TPM that only TPM workers and believers are led by Spirit of God and all other Pentecostals are deceived by some other spirit.”
Rubbish! I asked the elder in my local and he said this is not true.
Necromancy: These visitors to heaven and hell tell that they had a chat with the People whom they know who have died. This is necromancy and it is prohibited in Bible and abhorred by God
Necromancy is the practice of communicating with spirits. Seeing something in a vision is NOT necromancy.
The apostle John was given the book of Revelations in the form of visions and dreams.
Because these travelers of heaven and hell are still alive, and we don’t want to humiliate them by taking their name in public. Therefore we have refrained ourselves from naming brother and sister who went through this vision.
It’s ok to name and “shame” TPM workers, though, right?
That’s what the Bible tells you to do, right?
TPM was promoting it by recording CDs and distributing all over the place. One of my TPM friend send me a copy as well.
Can you please scan and post a copy of this CD’s cover and contents?
I would like to see it.
Has TPM replicated and propagated these CDs or some third party looking to make a quick buck?
Richard said “Truth isn’t subjective. Truth is a person and His name is Jesus. I try to have the same view of scripture that Jesus had. He viewed it as inerrant and so do I.”
James 4:11-12 says:
11: Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12: There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
But you justify it by saying that you are “exposing” TPM’s “wrong” doctrines.
No, you are not. You are merely taking out some vendetta against a group of people that you disagree with – a group that chooses not to argue with you, not because they can’t but it would be an utter waste of time.
I would like all the “true” believers here, who applaud the work of this site to stand up boldly and announce your real names and identities since you are such ardent believers of the “truth”.
You rightly give all pre-eminence and importance to the word of God and expound it so well and knowledgeably, but you hide in the shadows – visiting TPM faith homes, lurking around looking for things to point fingers at.
You are all hypocrites of the first order – Judases of the 21st century.
As Christ himself said “Let he that is without sin cast the first stone!”
Praise the Lord!
(I know you have a problem with TPM believers wishing each other with the words “Praise the Lord” as well!)
@bro denzel well replied
I would like to add my response too
//Rubbish! I asked the elder in my local and he said this is not true.//
It is ubiquitous. No need to ask anyone in particular. They keep saying this thousand times. Few servants personally said this to me when I was ardent TPM follower and in touch with them. We were talking about some other minister during dinner time and the brother said this and elder sister nodded. Another brother said the same about the leader of one Pentecostal denomination that Lucifer is controlling that leader.
//Necromancy is the practice of communicating with spirits. Seeing something in a vision is NOT necromancy. The apostle John was given the book of Revelations in the form of visions and dreams.//
These people have witnessed they have talked with people who have died. These are not mere dreams. These people went in trance. Their spirit communicated with dead people’s spirit. Isn’t this necromancy?
//How gracious? It’s ok to name and “shame” TPM workers, though, right? That’s what the Bible tells you to do, right?//
Brother there is difference in between exposing and humiliating. Please go through the article https://www.fromtpm.com/blog/2017/03/17/difference-between-finding-mistakes-of-individuals-and-exposing-false-doctrines/
Read Titus 1:11, Ephesians 5:12,13, Lam 2:14,
II Tim 4:10 Paul names Demas, II Tim 1:15 Paul names Phygellus and Hermogenus. Again in II Tim 4:14 Paul mentions the name of Alexander..
//More rubbish! Can you please scan and post a copy of this CD’s cover and contents?
I would like to see it. Has TPM replicated and propagated these CDs or some third party looking to make a quick buck? //
Who is Pastor Shyam sunder? Is he not part of TPM? Does not he occupy a big name? Do not people follow him? If Pastor Shyam did not promote it then why did he allow the people to give testimony? The audio recordings provide are proof to the contents of CD. Pastor T U Thomas himself endorsed testimony of Mary Baxter. Listen his sermon on heaven and hell. They have enough bucks. They propagate this testimony so that people will believe it become members of Tpm and then they get tithes. Every month!! Don’t tell me TPM workers are not looking at your pockets.
Bro Vik Gant,
//“It is taught in TPM that only TPM workers and believers are led by Spirit of God and all other Pentecostals are deceived by some other spirit.”//
This is not the official position of the church, on their letter head, but is targeted at illiterate, ignorant believers first and then it becomes a subculture- Majority wins always… If you were to pose as a lawyer and ask for an explanation, they will deny everything.
//Necromancy: These visitors to heaven and hell tell that they had a chat with the People whom they know who have died. This is necromancy and it is prohibited in Bible and abhorred by God//
Yes, seeing visions of the dead, as well as out of body visitations with the dead are not spiritual, they are demonic.
Apostle John saw the vision of the risen Lord, not of dead Peter or Paul.
//It’s ok to name and “shame” TPM workers, though, right?//
No brother, we feel very odd and low writing these things, but I don’t recall Martin Luther feeling awesome while shaming the pope.
Personally, when I have interacted with TPM workers/ believers above 45, I have been rebuked for asking such a question.
As a matter of fact, I was a student of Violin thatha- (Late. Arul Martin) during the old Frazer Town days. When I asked him a tricky question about Zion, he told me he needs time as he is not aware…. Later, in the late afternoon, when he discussed that with the worker, he returned back saying that we cannot question the doctrines of zion and I could well be besides myself- The worker placed his hands on my forehead and asked that questioning spirit to reveal its name. I know he might have been pulling my leg, but that’s how it is.
It is not desire to misuse the freedom of speech and indulge in slander.
I, personally, would be happy if all TPM’ites used logic and reason and did not see us as turning their world upside down.
If I were a TPM defender, I would also have felt offended to see names spill out.
Bro Vik, We do not want this to continue and we are ready to get blacklisted than watch many souls slide into idolatry.
From your reasonings, you seem to be intelligent and sensible, but the vast majority in the church are unaware of what the Bible actually teaches.
If any of my pointers are invalid/ offensive, please point out, I will be willing to introspect.
This reply is not meant to attack you personally and we both know that Truth is uncompromising and its name is Jesus.
My dear vik Gant,
You said that your TPM is a group that doesn’t want to argue with us not because they can’t but they don’t want to as its an utter waste of time. You mean to say that TPM group make the best use of their time. May I ask you that TPM group spending hours together in washing to make their clothes glistening white & ironing to meme it look stiff is the best use of time. Isn’t it? Their spending time to make varieties of food & dishes is the best usage of time. Isn’t it? Spending their time to make palatial building is also best usage of time. Isn’t it? Dear Vik Gant why simply trying to make the people fool? The fact is that your TPM is dumbstruck on many aspects exposed by fromtpm.com because they are correct & have no face to make arguments. You better stuck to your TPM because I think that’s a best place for you. Good wishes to you!
While speaking visions and prophesy, many people forget one thing, that is psychology. Every one has his own mentality or personality or psychology in him. This psychology is a magical mirror, which can transform into anything, you can stretch or shrink like an elastic and show God as devil and devil as God. Your heart is ready to believe all that stuff. If you go deeper into the psychology and psychiatry the worst part is these lunatics have auditory and visual hallucinations. They also say I am seeing God, God is talking to me right in front of me. So, every one has a varying degree of this disorder. Some are able to discern which is true and which is not true, whereas others try to convince others and gain mileage from them as revelations from God. Any prophesy is not a pure prophesy, a lot of his self will get mixed there. A wise man will be able to discern this. So any vision should come to past, then only it is true. If all these prophecies are so real why none of them could predict the natural calamities? Chennai tsunami? Chennai floods? World tower crash? Mind has a power to imagine anything, all these will not become visions and prophesies or revelations of God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFJPtVRlI64 @ James..you might find Dr. Ramachandran very interesting..
we are living in 21th century . I am not a christian person. my back ground was a Hindu background. I saw an article in facebook .now I am a christian because of your foolish arguments I am not supporting a church but I am arguing for testimonies of died person. because it is true otherwise the bible is mis leading book I want to prove that.holy bible says about 2witness. I. don’t know if know to you. they are elijha and hanock . at the time tribulation period they will come into the world and giving testimonies to this world and moses asked to god for seeing him our lord of god gaved a vision for him and after that. now a days our science reached in a conclusion near after death. if you have doubt. you must search near after death I am not arguing for a Church. I want to Christ become great
hi albin ,pls write in your mother tongue …tamil / malayalam , the moderators will translate it.
Testimonies shared in the website :http://www.divinerevelations.info/
Are they fake according to you?dear admin brother cos I’m in sheer confusion .
But I should thank God because through your posts he opened my eyes that I need not run the rat race of TPM’s Zion can marry and still be a minister to HIM
Kindly answer my question
Recently I came across a recording of a testimony of an american based TPM believer talking about going to New Earth and then climbing a staircase to New Heaven where he saw Abraham and Isaac and David and John the Baptiser and all the other sub standard saints including sinless Joseph and perfect Daniel.
While enquiring about New Jerusalem, he was told that a ladder will not suffice as the gulf is too great. The only way one can get to TPM’s New jerusalem is on the wings of prayer and praise. Not surprisingly the witness was praising the TPM super men for their extra-ordinary skills in piloting this AirTPM flight to Jerusalem.
Incidentally this TPM saint was in a coma and in an hospital when he saw this vision. What he does not realise is that he has disqualified himself as his body has been contaminated with medicine. Poor believers in India who die after medication can’t even enter the FATHOME let alone enter New Jerusalem. Talk about double standards and they are using this testimony to promote their deep doctrines.
Only God can save this poor man and our family and friends who are still deceived by the visions and dreams of this cult and its propoganda.
This article is an eye opener. Every TPM worker keeps quoting such visions to instill fear among the believers. I still remember many believers uninstalling WATSAPP (but all of them have reinstalled now) coz a teenage girl in trance saw people using watsapp landing in hell. I regret that in time past I also believed and put on a garb of fearfulness on hearing such trance escapades. These days most of the TPM workers are quoting these dreams and visions to prove their point. Since I stopped attending TPM meetings, a TPM worker to make me realise that TPM was the best, and a church that was recommend by God, quoted an example wherein a non Christian who had no idea about Christianity was shown in a vision to go to TPM church. For a moment I was without an answer. But thank God, a brother forwarded this article and God saved me the blushes.
TPM always boasts on vision of hell and heaven. This article was an eye opener to me. It was shocking that I was also deceived by this testimony of sarojini.